Sean launches TWO free tools, and the guys brainstorm marketing ideas
In this episode, Andrew and Sean talk about Halloween plans and Sean's decision to kill Stackwise. Meanwhile, Sean has launched two new free tools in the last week! The guys talk about how he did it and what his goals are for both of them. Then they spend the rest of the episode brainstorming marketing ideas for MetaMonster.
Links:
Links:
- Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
- Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
- MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
- ChartJuice: https://www.chartjuice.com/
- Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
- Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
- CopyWork: https://copy.work/
- Wordpress to Webflow-ready CSV: https://contentgobl.in/
For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.
Transcript:
00:00.35
Transcript:
00:00.35
Sean
Cool. Happy Halloween.
00:02.59
Andrew
Happy Halloween.
00:04.93
Sean
Are you going to any parties?
00:05.11
Andrew
o
00:08.27
Sean
Are you doing anything?
00:09.37
Andrew
Yeah, we're so normally we go to Chicago for Halloween hang out.
00:14.09
Sean
Because it's extra scary there. Sorry, go ahead.
00:16.45
Andrew
What?
00:17.99
Sean
It's just so scary in Chicago. and i don't know that's not why that's not why i was That's not why I was going with that.
00:20.19
Andrew
Wow, that's racist, John. Fuck you, dude.
00:26.99
Sean
Jeez, I'm kidding.
00:29.92
Andrew
fucking New Yorkers hating on Chicago. Gross.
00:33.16
Sean
That's not racist. I'm just elitist. That's different.
00:38.29
Sean
Yeah.
00:39.11
Andrew
normally we go to Chicago because, uh, a bunch of Maddie's best friends from high school all live there and they throw a Halloween party every year. So normally early we go and we go out with them and we go to like one bar and then we go get, uh, like shitty Greek food and then we go home.
00:46.34
Sean
yeah
00:56.68
Sean
Nice.
00:57.84
Andrew
but this year we decided to stay in Detroit, because we love Halloween and we love decorating for Halloween and. We've never gotten to be in Detroit for Halloween, we really want to pass out candy this year so tomorrow, which will probably be today by the time I get this published.
01:16.54
Andrew
We're gonna hang out, pass out candy, go drink some beers with our neighbors. And then Saturday, one of our best friends is throwing a haunted carnival party.
01:27.46
Andrew
It's her second year in a row throwing this like haunted carnival themed Halloween party.
01:30.91
Sean
Sick.
01:32.68
Andrew
So we're gonna go to the haunted carnival party and Maddie's dressing up as a ringmaster and I'm dressing up dressing up as a lion.
01:39.02
Sean
Nice.
01:39.91
Andrew
She's like a ringmaster lion tamer and then I'm a lion.
01:42.17
Sean
Yeah, hell yeah.
01:43.56
Andrew
So it's gonna be fun.
01:44.70
Sean
Sick.
01:46.43
Andrew
Yeah, what about you?
01:48.22
Sean
I'm debating on whether or not there's this like Instagram, ah like ah ah actually been sorry. I don't even know what they are. There's just like some cool internet website thing called shell tech that they're like a band or or producer do, or I don't, I don't fucking know.
02:02.36
Sean
They just make music. It's apparently dropped the new album.
02:03.90
Andrew
Fun.
02:05.31
Sean
They have like an album party tomorrow and I think it's for, so maybe that, or maybe I'll be in my room jamming away.
02:08.48
Andrew
pun
02:16.05
Sean
on whether or not stackwise has a future because i am uh-huh yeah
02:19.88
Andrew
wait Wait, wait, pause before we get too far into that. Can you just tell me a little bit about like what Halloween is like in New York? I'm so curious.
02:32.57
Andrew
Like Yeah.
02:33.00
Sean
what is how yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like uh well in queens it's super cute it's very residential you know so everyone like especially in a lot of kids in the neighborhood they walk around and they get candy and there's like really nice areas in queens that people will go to and there's like halloween decorations and stuff yeah exactly exactly the full skies can i think it's a trap i think that's like a like
02:52.01
Andrew
Got to go get the full size candy bars. I went to Costco today and I was this close to buying the full size bars, but yeah, I'm not actually sure it's better.
03:03.66
Andrew
I'm not sure giving out full size bars is better. Like my plan is to give out a big old handful of candy and, and then you get a mix of candy and you get to like spread it out a little.
03:05.94
Sean
Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah.
03:14.05
Andrew
Whereas if I give you a full size bar, you're going to eat it super fast.
03:18.14
Sean
I was just gonna say, like, the expectation of being in a house that gives full-sized candy bars, that's dangerous.
03:21.100
Andrew
Oh yeah. Once you go, once you go full size, you can't go back.
03:24.58
Sean
Yeah. Exactly. You can't, you can't roll back the whatever.
03:27.20
Andrew
Yeah.
03:30.16
Sean
Yeah. But like, yeah.
03:34.39
Andrew
It was 20 bucks for 30 full size bars or 20 bucks for like a five pound bag of candy.
03:40.29
Sean
Yeah, see?
03:40.72
Andrew
And so I was like.
03:42.09
Sean
Did you see that meme of, uh, one of the fuh- uh, like, fuh in a Halloween bucket?
03:47.49
Andrew
Yes, that was so good.
03:47.91
Sean
And it's like, one fuck.
03:49.21
Andrew
Oh my God. did you see the one where they had like a bucket of candy and then a cooler for like the adults?
03:51.93
Sean
Yeah.
03:57.31
Andrew
But then when you open the cooler, there's somebody inside of it who jumps out at you and scares the shit out of you.
03:57.34
Sean
No.
04:02.08
Andrew
I was really, I was really tempted to do that slash also maybe you just have a cooler for adults, but I'm not made of money by your own beer.
04:02.52
Sean
That's hilarious. That's really good. and Damn, that's good. Yeah. Yeah.
04:09.62
Sean
Exactly. Yeah.
04:10.99
Andrew
Except I did split a case of beer with my friend and where he's just going to have it at his house until we get over there.
04:11.11
Sean
Yeah.
04:17.12
Sean
Nice.
04:17.77
Andrew
So anyway, yeah.
04:18.09
Sean
Anyway. Anyway. Halloween is okay. It's super residential. It's cute here, Manhattan. Plenty of like Halloween parties at clubs and and bars and a bunch of things.
04:28.61
Sean
Most bars will have like a Halloween thing and a trick special.
04:30.54
Andrew
Yeah.
04:31.16
Sean
So plenty of like Halloween. Like I think Halloween is one of the sloppiest part like like like events. Right. I think it's like St. Patty's Day.
04:41.68
Sean
No, I think it's like I don't know if there's like a more sloppy.
04:45.27
Andrew
it What?
04:47.95
Sean
Like Holly.
04:47.94
Andrew
St. Patrick's Day is definitely sloppier than Halloween, right?
04:50.79
Sean
Yeah, but it's the it's the number of people that celebrate it, right? Like, like you got like because like the people that go and celebrate Halloween, not all of them are going to participate in like a St. Patty's Day sort of thing. and But I think that there's like, I don't know, I think it's like a squares, you know, a squares of rectangular rectangles, not not always a square sort of thing. Anyway, those I think regardless, I think St. Patty's Day and Halloween are probably like the two sloppiest days in New York, pretty much.
05:16.48
Andrew
I could see that I could see that Halloween's hell of fun.
05:19.63
Andrew
It's Maddie's favorite, favorite holiday.
05:19.67
Sean
Yeah.
05:21.51
Andrew
She loves it. She loves Halloween movies. She loves like Halloween decorations. She loves like witchy shit in general.
05:29.06
Sean
Yeah, yeah.
05:30.32
Andrew
So, yeah, it's fun. It's fun to see how much she enjoys it.
05:35.58
Sean
like Halloween. Halloween's a good time.
05:37.21
Andrew
Yeah.
05:37.32
Sean
I i never, like, know what to do.
05:39.36
Andrew
Are you dressing up this year?
05:41.38
Sean
No.
05:42.88
Andrew
What are you doing, Sean?
05:42.94
Sean
I don't know. I don't know. I just always forget to. i don't know It just kind of creeps up on me.
05:46.25
Andrew
Yeah.
05:47.90
Sean
Like I know that everyone's talking about it and I keep thinking I have an extra time. I think it's the fact that like October is 31 days in the month. So I always think there's like more time and I procrastinate and it's like slot something together.
05:58.07
Sean
The last minute last year was a cow.
05:59.67
Andrew
I bet you were a very cute cow.
06:04.63
Sean
Yeah, I'll send you a picture later.
06:06.17
Andrew
Yeah.
06:06.43
Sean
Yeah, you were a cute Louise. I know.
06:09.27
Andrew
Yeah, yeah that was.
06:10.85
Sean
That was a photo that haunts my memory every day.
06:13.63
Andrew
Yeah, that was those two years ago. I went as Louise Belcher and I might I might pull that one out for for Halloween night again and then and then rock the the lion costume for the party on Saturday.
06:20.79
Sean
Nice.
06:27.20
Andrew
But anyway, Halloween is awesome.
06:28.29
Sean
Oh yeah, speaking of the dead.
06:32.08
Andrew
Oh, no.
06:32.16
Sean
oh
06:33.88
Andrew
Oh, no. No.
06:38.06
Andrew
Yeah. So what's going on with Stackwise?
06:39.89
Sean
Well, there's something called HIPAA, which you knew about and I knew about right so that
06:43.31
Andrew
Yep. Yeah. How does HIPAA relate to stack wise?
06:47.57
Sean
Because, ah ah okay, so the purpose of Stackwise is, it's an app where you can curate in the nootropics and supplements you take.
06:53.61
Andrew
Do those count as health information?
06:54.45
Sean
People who, I'm getting there, I'm getting there.
06:57.39
Andrew
Whoa.
06:58.05
Sean
There's a lot of, there's a lot of nuance here. So the people that are into nootropics and supplements do not just take like generally available and safe drugs or people who are going, like who I expect to use this app, do not just take take it.
07:00.36
Andrew
Yeah.
07:14.70
Sean
I know this to be true because I gotta show you this tool later it basically maps like all the subreddits together um or it tells you like it's like a good someone's get a project I gotta yeah I gotta find it
07:22.80
Andrew
What's it called?
07:27.18
Andrew
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
07:29.27
Sean
But anyway, it like it like if you type in the subreddit, it'll tell you like traffic that goes to other subreddits because people will post in crossbows, which is crazy.
07:35.41
Andrew
Whoa. Interesting.
07:37.02
Sean
But you'll see that like if you look at new tropics, like people are in non supplement, like that it it gets into like medication, it gets into like a all these like, like depression regiment is one of them, which is a lot of like, but like controlled medication, something like that.
07:50.01
Sean
Okay, so here's the problem. One, with HIPAA compliance, there's a lot of compliance things we have to do and and build it, which like I kind of knew about, but I didn't know the extent of which I thought I could.
07:59.06
Andrew
Oh yeah, I've built a HIPAA compliant app before and it's a nightmare.
08:02.52
Sean
Yeah, so that's so that's nightmare one, which means I don't feel comfortable launching the product without that being in there because we have a compatibility checker, which checks if like drug interactions are exist or not.
08:03.81
Andrew
Such a pain in the ass.
08:17.24
Sean
And in in order to to build a really good one, I wanted to ask the person about their allergies, the medication that they're taking, like things that what we would want to catch before you do this thing so that we can be like, hey, maybe don't take this thing that raises your heart rate if you already have like heart rate medicine, something like that, right?
08:25.43
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
08:37.73
Sean
That would be really useful.
08:38.07
Andrew
Yeah.
08:40.01
Sean
Okay, so here's like storing that information and like being HIPAA compliant is one thing and that's a pain in the ass. Here's the other thing. Us telling you that doing something is unsafe counts as a medical recommendation.
08:51.03
Andrew
Whoa.
08:51.17
Sean
And I am not a medical professional to tell you not to kill yourself.
08:53.32
Andrew
No, no, you are not.
08:55.94
Sean
Exactly.
08:56.100
Andrew
Oh, bad.
08:57.79
Sean
So cannot recommend dosage. I cannot which ah sorry, I cannot make dosage recommendations. But putting a warning label and saying that this is bad, I think is a recommendation.
09:09.92
Sean
Because it's it's a recommendation not to do something.
09:12.01
Andrew
Mm hmm.
09:14.22
Sean
So um I think there are ways to build this app where I skirt the line of what is medical information, what is informational, and I skirt the line of like what makes sense for HIPAA.
09:28.43
Sean
but I think it makes for a much worse application. For example, because I'm not a medical professional, I cannot say that, like, alpha GPC has mental benefit. Like, I cannot say the type of mental benefit it has. I can put it under, like like, okay, here's a better example. Like, i ah ah like like there are people who who are in the space, like, they take Adderall as a as a cognitive enhancer, right, to do or I can't say that I have to say that it's a it's a controlled stimulant but I can't tell you that that's good for your but like for your cognitive whatever that I can't say that's good for something because I'm not unless and unless like it is publicly like written somewhere by like PubChem but if the if I have to cite every single effect I have like anyway so now I don't know if I want to do it or not now I'm stuck in this thing
10:08.36
Andrew
Yeah.
10:18.84
Andrew
Fair.
10:19.90
Andrew
I mean, yeah. it's It does sound like like basically there's there's a lot of risk here. And it was always going to be a difficult product to monetize.
10:31.71
Andrew
So maybe for the best long term.
10:32.95
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
10:37.69
Sean
Maybe, maybe, the shitty thing is you got to look at this. I got to show you you like the subreddits, like rslashing tropics is connected to like, cause I was, I was looking through like multiple subreddits.
10:45.73
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
10:49.42
Sean
There's, there's just like the market is so big. The market. um Yeah, I think I can see why sub.co has funding.
11:00.27
Sean
I think it's not like it's impossible to do. I think it just becomes way more costly because I think I should retain a health care attorney.
11:07.79
Andrew
Yeah.
11:07.91
Sean
I think I should do all these things.
11:10.39
Andrew
Yeah.
11:10.42
Sean
And now it's not an indie bootstrap project anymore.
11:12.96
Andrew
the The HIPAA project that I worked on, it just. It constantly was hanging over my head of like, if something goes wrong. Like we had insurance.
11:25.23
Andrew
this was obviously not a product we were developing for ourselves.
11:24.77
Sean
Yeah.
11:27.63
Andrew
We were developing it on behalf of a client, but still, if something went wrong, it was a big deal and it needed to be fixed fast. And we, that came down to us. It was our responsibility to like maintain it and do our best.
11:40.66
Andrew
And like, even with insurance and everything, if you're not, you know, You could be liable or you if if something bad happens, you could be responsible for someone's you health information getting out.
11:59.16
Sean
Yeah.
11:59.46
Andrew
It was just like too much pressure and too much too much risk. And we eventually you know handed the project off to another firm who was
12:10.42
Sean
Way more into this sort of stuff.
12:12.13
Andrew
Yeah, and just more, you know, more willing to take that on and deal with it. And so yeah, it's stressful. I yeah, I.
12:24.11
Andrew
You know, I've thought about getting into some things that involve HIPAA. You know, I've, I've looked at building products for therapists.
12:29.23
Sean
Mm hmm.
12:31.59
Andrew
it's something I'd love to do someday, but it's something I think I would only do if I could self-fund it and like self-fund it in a way that it was really solid.
12:43.67
Andrew
you know, hire good security help early on, you know, hire good attorneys to, to work with you.
12:43.54
Sean
Yeah. Mm hmm.
12:51.40
Andrew
you know, make sure you had. had your bases covered, make sure you have an engineer who understands how to build for HIPAA compliant applications, which probably means really careful database architecture, because there just is a lot of risk there.
13:13.39
Sean
Yeah.
13:13.54
Andrew
And your costs go up. So to be on a HIPAA compliant application, To be HIPAA compliant, you have to sign BAA's with all of your service providers.
13:16.46
Sean
Yeah.
13:26.91
Andrew
So you're hosting and database provider and all that. And none of them will sign a BAA for anything less than like, you know, 500 bucks a month or something like that.
13:37.51
Andrew
And so your costs go, go way up really quickly.
13:38.05
Sean
Yeah.
13:42.01
Andrew
So yeah.
13:42.87
Sean
yeah Yeah.
13:45.57
Andrew
And you don't want to, you know, you don't want to not be compliant if it's like, sure, you could skirt the lines, but like, unless you were really, really had a really, really solid argument that like, yeah, we don't need to worry about compliance and this isn't going to have any.
13:46.11
Sean
Yeah.
14:02.84
Andrew
Doesn't run the risk of harming anybody. You don't want to get into that.
14:05.19
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I think the thing is like, I think there is a version of this app, right? We, or we don't ask for like any sort of bio information and we don't ask for it like, wait, and then we'd like, you know, we kill the compatibility checker, right? And like now it's just like notion where you get to.
14:24.64
Sean
log your stuff and share a public notion it's not it's kind of a it's kind of a whatever project at that point so yeah but the market here let me I'll send you a screenshot it's like huge
14:42.78
Andrew
Screenshots are are great podcast content famously.
14:46.04
Sean
yeah yeah yeah yeah i think so they can watch the youtube that doesn't exist but yeah what's uh anyway so now i'm thinking about some other projects or uh i
14:49.11
Andrew
Yeah.
14:59.22
Andrew
Yeah, I saw, I saw your tinkering with some stuff, with bolt dot.new.
15:03.27
Sean
was i was
15:05.07
Andrew
Anything you want to talk about yet?
15:07.76
Sean
Uh, yeah, I, uh, I've been shipping. I've been shipping like crazy. but really bolt.new has been shipping. So a copy work thing that had made a long time ago, I finally got to like update that and like take it live.
15:20.56
Sean
So now it's no longer at like a miscreants.github.io thing. It's like at copy dot.work. So that's cool. I'm checking out copy dot.work if you want to learn how to write like, I don't know, internet people.
15:27.32
Andrew
Yeah.
15:32.56
Andrew
I'll make sure to link to that from the show notes. So remind remind me what copy work is again.
15:38.83
Sean
ah ah So copy work is, copy work is a concept is a thing that a lot of the internet copywriter online marketers, people have talked about of like, just, you know, if you want to write like a really great writer, if you want to write like, like Jason Cohen, the best thing to do is just the copy of Jason Cohen's work, ah like, and and a bunch of his work so that you can like learn and feel the texture of his writing.
16:01.41
Andrew
Yeah.
16:01.53
Sean
And that way you can kind of figure out.
16:02.14
Andrew
And not copy is in like plagiarize and like publish, but just copy, like literally sit there and type out the things that he has written so that you like learn his patterns and like learn his style of writing.
16:07.06
Sean
Yeah.
16:09.50
Sean
yeah exactly exactly exactly and you know it like that that's cool and yeah yeah yeah i've done it a lot i mean that's how i learned to draw as well i just trace things into i learned how like faces worked so uh it's definitely i mean i don't think it's unhelpful i think it's time consuming and it's kind of a pain in the ass to put like someone's thing on the side on the left side and then like you're writing on the right side
16:12.97
Andrew
and Yeah. Have you ever tried this by the way? Yeah.
16:26.17
Andrew
Yeah.
16:38.36
Sean
then like you're thinking about spelling and you're thinking about but all the stuff that's not useful like the point is not to actually like type everything they have like perfectly it's to just kind of read every single word as if you were typing it So, to me, that was just like, we should just create an app that's like a keyboard karaoke. It's like, you know, so the the functionality is the same as like one of those like typing tests online except it's for an entire passage.
17:07.99
Sean
And that's copy work. And you can pick passages from like Jason Cohen, Paul Graham. I have to keep adding them in. It's like a, gift it's a git-based CMS now. um but You can put markdown files and then it generates the entire passage library.
17:19.00
Andrew
Oh, that's cool.
17:20.47
Sean
So I can keep adding to it as I have time.
17:23.01
Andrew
Cool.
17:23.78
Sean
there's like front matter to like say the author and the and the category and stuff and yeah you just you just type there's a like auto there's auto correct like built-in so like you know if you're typing like if you if you spell a word wrong you press space it'll just bring you to the next word because the point again is not to like have you type it perfectly the point is to let you just copy everything fast as possible and yeah
17:28.20
Andrew
Nice.
17:50.96
Andrew
Does Sam par have a version of this? Like he has like a cop, huh?
17:53.37
Sean
Sampar has copied, yeah, Sampar has copied that, which is a news, which is like a paid course where he sends you, it's like an automated newsletter course where he sends you a new thing every single week and he tells you to copy it.
18:05.74
Sean
I thought about just like, like, there's like, it's a little bit buggy at the moment, but I thought about just like hitting it up and saying like, Hey, do you want, do you just, do you do you want to just run your thing on this and make it like an exercise, but.
18:17.56
Andrew
You probably, you totally should like try to, because if you could work out some sort of partnership with him, that's instant distribution.
18:19.70
Sean
Hmm.
18:25.47
Sean
Yeah.
18:26.41
Andrew
And that would suddenly make this like way, way, way more viable.
18:31.53
Sean
Here. Semper, semper, semper, semper, semper.
18:34.34
Andrew
Hey, Sam Parr, if you are using Podscan, check us out. ah Hit up, hit up, Sean.
18:40.87
Sean
Copy.work. Or you just got to copy.work in your browser.
18:43.35
Andrew
Yeah, go to copy dot.work, check it out. Honestly, like you should totally pitch him on this, because I feel like he does shit like this all the time. Yeah.
18:54.19
Sean
Yeah, yeah, it was definitely, it was he was definitely in mind while I was working on it, or have been working on it. That's where I got the idea from. then on the other side, I've also used bolt on.new to set up, ah it's now at content goblin, content goblin, but .in instead of like, and it's just my WordPress to Webflow ready CSV exporter.
19:15.26
Sean
I made an update to it. Yeah, it's even shipping.
19:16.38
Andrew
That's sick.
19:18.56
Sean
I'm using AI and just shipping.
19:20.10
Andrew
Cool. What are you, what are you going to do? Are you going to do anything to promote these? Like, do you have any plans to, so do you have any plans to turn these into more of businesses or are you more just trying to get them out there and see if they get any track traction and like, yeah. So what's what's your goal with them?
19:39.15
Sean
mean there were kind of more internal tools like the the WordPress the the Webflow CSV thing is because like we as an agency need to use it so often ah because we had asked to migrate all the time and it's a pain in the ass to get the WordPress posts out so that was the main reason I was giving it
19:55.92
Sean
I think if I want to do distribution for that, I think it's setting up a Webflow page and then just pointing to it and putting it on the Webflow showcase, because that in itself gets a lot of clicks and views. And I've tried things like that and like, like many tiny Webflow projects will just get views and people trying it out. so
20:12.23
Andrew
sick
20:12.89
Sean
That's probably like, at some point I will do that. I think my main thing is neither of those projects are monetized whatsoever.
20:20.46
Andrew
Yeah.
20:20.55
Sean
And I really don't want this WordPress though that webflow CSV to be like a lead magnet for like miscreants.
20:24.99
Andrew
Why not?
20:29.87
Sean
because we're not at a like because you can't scale without form and we're not at a place where like if I 5x my leads or sorry if I 5x my leads I can respond to all of them and like close them and bring them in I would really like it to be something where it's like at the minimum it's like a buy me a coffee like did you find this thing useful like it'd be great if you sent me a dollar and that would be
20:49.66
Andrew
Mm hmm.
20:53.47
Andrew
Yeah, you should at least like link to miscreants or something from these or like link to something of yours so that you get some like ah ah SEO juice.
20:59.01
Sean
Yeah.
21:02.97
Sean
Yeah.
21:05.36
Sean
Yeah, totally, totally.
21:08.17
Sean
Content album's kind of like a temporary domain as well. I just think, thanks, thanks, thanks.
21:11.26
Andrew
I love it. Leave it. Yeah.
21:16.29
Sean
It would be cool to do like.
21:17.17
Andrew
Although if you if you leave it, you need to change like the the little world icon to like a little goblin icon.
21:23.35
Sean
Yeah, agreed, agreed, agreed.
21:24.82
Andrew
yeah
21:27.02
Andrew
with both of these So you built both of these with bolt dot.new.
21:31.08
Sean
Uh, copy work was built by a dev a long time ago, but it was like very buggy, not buggy. It was, it had, it just like had like really short passages. Like the entire passage library was one giant JSON file. Like it wasn't great. It was using like a random bit bucket, like dependency to his own personal bit bucket. So like.
21:52.40
Sean
imported it into bolt dot.new and then rebuilt on top of it. You can import some GitHub repositories.
21:56.16
Andrew
That's wild. You can import stuff.
22:00.40
Sean
Lifehack, if it's a public GitHub reports to repository, you could do bolt dot.new forward slash tilde forward slash GitHub dot com slash GitHub username slash repository.
22:12.43
Sean
And to go bolt dot.new will try. If it's too large of a repository, it will just give up on you.
22:17.04
Andrew
Hmm.
22:17.90
Sean
But like it works for this. Yeah, it's pretty sweet.
22:19.49
Andrew
That's cool. So you were able to import the code that was like kind of half finished and buggy from the dev and then get it to a really polished place with bolt.
22:24.52
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
22:30.64
Andrew
That's sick.
22:31.82
Andrew
How, how was the process of like influencing the design because like copywork has a vibe.
22:42.50
Andrew
You know, it has it's got the like kind of old school buttons and and yeah, the like sans serif font and stuff like how hard was it to tweak the design with Bolt?
22:42.56
Sean
Thanks. Yeah. So.
22:55.31
Sean
copy work, I didn't tweak the design because copy work, I had it looking like that already.
22:59.49
Andrew
Gotcha. so So you were war more working on like the internals, huh?
23:02.87
Sean
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like all the design, all the design work had been pretty much decided and done like early, early on for, uh, for the, for the tool for the work.
23:10.01
Andrew
Yeah. Content goblin.
23:14.63
Sean
Yeah. For content goblin for the WordPress export tool. ah ah like like I kind of just let it run with it. I found out that like bolts prompt starts with build a full production SAS professional looking SAS app. And it has like a couple of styles, it's buys two words. So this is one of them. um But in terms of like, now that I've been been able to play with it, it is
23:41.23
Sean
pretty easy I would say from a scale of 1 to 10 it is probably like a 7.5 to 8 out of easiness to get it to do what I want or to get it to look how I want but you have to decide on the look when you start the application if you if you if you let it do too much stuff and you tell it to refactor the UI and make it change styles it kind of strikes the struggle a lot or
24:06.09
Andrew
Okay. okay How much did you have to edit the code that it generated? Like were, was it fully functional? Like did it do a good job of creating functional code or were you having to like do a lot of bug fixing yourself?
24:20.58
Sean
would say minimal bug fixing. i would you know like
24:25.92
Sean
Also, it probably wrote 95% of the code.
24:31.38
Andrew
Huh.
24:32.90
Sean
it probably the The only places it didn't write, every once in a while, it gets stuck. like What Bolt-Out New York tries to do is it writes your code, and it tries to run a dev server.
24:43.97
Andrew
Yeah.
24:44.05
Sean
And then you as you click on the dev server, there are errors. It can track that there are errors. And then it'll say, like do you want to you know fix this sort of stuff? every once in a while it won't know why it's broken and then get into a ah ah fixed loop where you keep clicking fix, it'll try to fix it, it'll fail and it'll fail like five times and it'll ask you like hey do you want to like do something else but you can actually take the like the error code like possibly drop it into like Claude and be like yo why is my ship broken and Claude will give you a fresh perspective um and then if you fix it then Bolt will be able to kind of progress that way.
24:51.06
Andrew
Mhm.
24:56.16
Andrew
Yeah.
25:16.97
Sean
I will say It is a lot better at some, some stacks than others. Like I was trying to do something in like all next JS, and it's tough, it like, there's always improper typing and like I would have to tell it to like, make sure you get valid types and all that sort of stuff.
25:24.65
Andrew
Okay.
25:30.68
Andrew
Okay.
25:36.26
Andrew
So what's the the stack that you're, which stacks have you found work better?
25:42.17
Sean
Okay, so here's the other side of this. I have not really gotten in bolt on you to actually build a real full stack app.
25:49.39
Andrew
Sure.
25:50.16
Andrew
Yeah.
25:50.19
Sean
it
25:50.32
Andrew
This is like more of like a one-off like tool.
25:53.25
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:54.25
Andrew
Yeah.
25:54.65
Sean
So like but for those both of these tools react in TypeScript.
25:57.94
Andrew
Okay.
25:58.81
Sean
and And Node.js is pretty much like all, like what it's best at and like really quick at.
26:05.42
Andrew
Cool.
26:06.22
Sean
But yeah, you can tell it to use like Radix, Shatsian, Tailwind, and it pretty much does all that sort of no problem. Yeah.
26:14.47
Andrew
The fact that it can generate stuff in Tailwind is cool.
26:16.97
Sean
Yeah, dude, there are people who are just like, you can, I didn't realize you could just upload like a picture and just go clone this and it will just clone it.
26:17.25
Andrew
um
26:25.94
Sean
Like you can, you can send it a picture of like YouTube and just say, like clone, like clone YouTube, follow this UI and it'll just spit it out.
26:33.70
Andrew
Weird.
26:35.52
Sean
And you could say like, you know, clone it in like whatever component library, you know, spit it out.
26:38.74
Andrew
Is it mostly doing front-end stuff, or does it do, like, will it generate, like, if you try to do next or next, will it generate, like, some back-end API kind of stuff?
26:38.78
Sean
I started playing with like,
26:48.74
Sean
will, it will. It's just like because of the limitations of the fact that it's through the single web console, like you can't really like run a database server. I don't think you can run a database server on like the terminal locally and like start doing that.
27:01.24
Andrew
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
27:04.07
Sean
What you can do, which I've been trying to get it to work, is connect it to my super base and then get it to do things.
27:08.39
Andrew
Yeah, cool.
27:12.35
Sean
it's It becomes like a process once it starts having to connect to like an external service like that.
27:17.19
Andrew
Yeah.
27:18.53
Andrew
Who is the team that built this?
27:18.57
Sean
But usual.
27:19.77
Andrew
What is stack blitz?
27:20.25
Sean
Stack Blitz?
27:21.21
Andrew
What is, what is stack blitz?
27:21.61
Sean
Yeah. They're like VS Code in the cloud.
27:24.86
Andrew
Oh, they're trying to build, huh.
27:27.61
Sean
Yeah.
27:28.74
Andrew
Cool. Fascinating.
27:32.26
Sean
Yeah. I'm like 30 million tokens in over the course of like three and a half days, by the way.
27:40.22
Andrew
What's the cost of that?
27:42.29
Sean
It's 20 bucks for 60 bucks. It's 20 bucks for 10 million tokens, basically.
27:46.46
Andrew
Okay. All right. That's not terrible.
27:47.91
Sean
Yeah.
27:48.56
Andrew
Yeah.
27:48.63
Sean
Yeah. you know Yeah. I mean, I paid $60 to get to like pretty useful, like cute site things up. So I'm happy with it.
27:55.02
Andrew
Yeah.
27:57.17
Andrew
I wonder like if I were to try to take chart juice, the existing chart juice code and build like a Figma plugin, how well do you think it could do something like that?
28:02.99
Sean
Mm hmm.
28:09.24
Sean
I think we should just try it.
28:10.75
Andrew
yeah
28:11.19
Sean
I think you should, yeah, I think you should just import that GitHub thing in there and then see, I think.
28:14.20
Andrew
Yeah.
28:17.85
Sean
So, okay. Here's, here's my concern. I don't know if it knows how to interface with like Figma, right? Like I was trying to think about what it is.
28:27.28
Andrew
Yeah, with like APIs.
28:29.01
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I was wondering if I could build like a Chrome extension off of it, but I don't know how it would show me a dev thing to see that it works.
28:30.28
Andrew
So it's more.
28:33.54
Andrew
Yeah.
28:36.84
Andrew
Yeah.
28:39.28
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah.
28:40.32
Sean
yeah
28:40.69
Andrew
So, yeah, it's interesting. this I'm starting to slot this in my like framework of AI tools.
28:46.09
Sean
Yeah.
28:50.29
Andrew
This is feeling less like a cursor co-pilot. By the way, did you see the new Microsoft thing? I forget what they're calling it, GitHub something or other, Spark.
28:58.47
Sean
Spark, get up Spark. It's bolt on you, but GitHub.
29:00.17
Andrew
Yeah.
29:01.55
Sean
Yeah.
29:01.72
Andrew
Yeah, yeah. So I'm really curious to give that a try.
29:02.82
Sean
Yeah.
29:05.32
Andrew
And it looks like they're trying to improve co-pilot
29:05.26
Sean
Yeah.
29:09.63
Sean
Yeah.
29:10.30
Andrew
Like, for a while, like, Copilot couldn't really take in the context of your product project.
29:15.35
Sean
I guess so.
29:15.85
Andrew
I'm guessing it it can do that now. If not, they should fix that. I don't know.
29:20.73
Sean
I guess so. Yeah,
29:22.46
Andrew
But yeah, it seems like it's kind of like bolt dot.new. Yeah, i need I need to play around with these. It's super interesting. But yeah, I i feel like.
29:34.48
Andrew
I'm thinking of the bolt and spark as like more along the lines of like, what's the Vercel thing that lets you generate front end stuff?
29:41.100
Sean
Oh yeah, V0, V0.
29:43.37
Andrew
V zero.
29:44.26
Sean
Yeah.
29:44.38
Andrew
I'm thinking of these is all kind of in the same vein where it's like, they're really better at front end stuff and they're, they're good at like, prototyping simple things really quickly.
29:49.72
Sean
yeah
29:55.52
Andrew
And then when you need more complexity, then you move to something like Cursor or Copilot or Codium and bring in the human.
30:00.39
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
30:05.14
Andrew
And when you need to do APIs and databases and stuff like that.
30:06.09
Sean
yeah
30:11.10
Andrew
But man, this stuff is wild.
30:14.15
Sean
Yeah, I would say, I would say you can probably, I think if you know how to, like, like if you if you have built a sass app before, you arguably you don't actually need cursor, you could probably do it all on bolt.new, because the nice thing about bolt.new is it gives you the code and you can edit it, and then it won't change the stuff you've edited, because it'll take that into context. And the shitty thing about cursor is that every, like, cursor has always been, The context is always, it's always ever taken in the context of the current page it's on.
30:47.14
Andrew
Mm hmm.
30:48.75
Sean
And you have to like forcefully always tell it to read the entire code base when you ask it a question.
30:51.90
Andrew
Oh, interesting.
30:53.72
Sean
And then, as I've actually tried to do the copy work thing on cursor first, before bolt dot.new, and it failed miserably constantly.
30:58.78
Andrew
Hmm.
31:04.77
Sean
And that was like with an anthropic key.
31:06.36
Andrew
Hmm.
31:09.01
Sean
With Bolt, it's just kind of been better. But that might be because I'm not prompting it the same, and it might have its own like initial prompts and stuff. But yeah.
31:20.19
Sean
I think it's a great way to build and like free tools on the internet, to generate SEO, and point back to you your own app, though.
31:25.11
Andrew
Yeah, yeah like i'm I'm immediately thinking, like what what could I build? you know I've got a couple of things that I want to build for MetaMonster, but they're probably going to involve APIs.
31:38.89
Andrew
And so maybe it won't work as well for that.
31:37.89
Sean
Hmm.
31:41.05
Andrew
But then I'm jumping to, could I build some stuff for like my personal site to start driving more traffic to my personal site?
31:48.61
Sean
Yeah. so how's Meta Monster going?
31:49.12
Andrew
um I don't know what that would be. but I'll have to play around with it and see. Cool. Super interesting.
32:01.40
Andrew
MetaMonster is good. Austin is making great progress, so ah we've got we've been getting a little bit of feedback from the on the wireframes from a couple of people, and then We have like some some super rough mocks.
32:21.66
Andrew
i get the latest and send it over to you. You can tell me what you think. Keeping the styling pretty simple right now, we can always do more later.
32:34.42
Andrew
And then he's decided on a tech stack, so going to build it in Nuxt and use Superbase.
32:44.78
Sean
Nice.
32:44.86
Andrew
And then may build some pieces of the back end in Python if needed, but might be able to do it all in JavaScript. Both of us know JavaScript better than we know anything else, so it's probably a good fit for us. though I do really want, would love to have a project that was in Django or Laravel or something someday, but yeah usually better to stick with what you know. It's going to be faster.
33:15.03
Andrew
And then, yeah, my, my focus is still marketing. So, thought it would be cool today to kind of talk through some of the things I'm doing on the marketing side and just do some, you know, brainstorming together of like, what should I be doing to get, you know, to sort of blow up the marketing and, and make it, make it work.
33:31.56
Sean
Yeah.
33:38.31
Andrew
so two main things that I'm doing for marketing right now, I've got Google ads running. Um, and those are working okay. yeah conversion rates are slowly coming down a little bit.
33:50.38
Andrew
Uh, I think they're probably going to, they're probably hanging it around like 6%, something like that.
33:55.88
Sean
okay
33:56.72
Andrew
I fucked up my analytics for a little while and I've got that fixed now. So, you know, I need to give it another week and see what the data looks like. But for, for a while it's been around a 6% conversion rate.
34:09.89
Andrew
and two waiting list signups. Uh, so just people giving us their email. and then that's costing me about 10 bucks per signup.
34:21.40
Andrew
and then, the, uh, yeah, we're at hovering around a hundred signups right now. I might be at like one 14 or something like that.
34:29.32
Sean
Nice. nice
34:32.08
Sean
Are they, like, have you seen the emails? Are they, like, business emails? Are they are they legit?
34:37.66
Andrew
Yeah, mix.
34:39.16
Sean
Okay.
34:39.14
Andrew
There's there's some like bullshitty emails in there, like definitely seeing some stuff that's like got a few too many numbers in it makes me makes me feel a little like
34:41.100
Sean
Sure.
34:46.94
Sean
got it got it right
34:49.73
Andrew
But um and yeah, seeing more, a lot of Gmail's mail dot com iCloud, a lot of that kind of stuff.
35:02.97
Andrew
So ah know that's that not ideal. But have seen a handful of people ah who have signed up and I'm like, oh shit, I recognize that name. Or you know pretty small numbers so far. But a handful of people signing up with like professional emails and stuff. That's a great question.
35:25.94
Andrew
So that's going OK. So you know my goal is 500 people on the waiting list before we launch.
35:33.03
Sean
Mhm.
35:35.65
Andrew
I would love for it to be a few thousand, but you know realistic goal, I'm saying like maybe 500.
35:37.29
Sean
Mhm.
35:41.90
Sean
Yeah.
35:42.30
Andrew
And let's say we start rolling out access you know by the end of the year. So that gives me two months to try to get 400 more signups.
35:48.97
Sean
Mm-hmm.
35:51.94
Andrew
so that's one thing. And then the other thing that I've been doing, is primarily cold email. and I was following the Jason Cohen template where I was actually emailing people and saying like, Hey, I'll pay you to, to chat with me.
35:59.37
Sean
Okay.
36:08.68
Andrew
that was working. Okay. I was getting a really low response rate, high open rates, low response rate. Uh, but I was getting people responding and saying, yeah, sure.
36:18.33
Sean
Nice.
36:18.55
Andrew
And about half to two thirds of the people who were willing to talk wanted us to pay them. And so, you know, have wanted, have been testing a new campaign that doesn't offer to pay because that was getting expensive.
36:26.16
Sean
i see Yeah.
36:36.66
Sean
yeah
36:37.37
Andrew
And I was just worried about continuing to rack up costs there when I don't know if these people are gonna convert and I don't know how far away we are from having the product ready exactly. And so I i launched like a week ago, launched a new email campaign that just says, like hey, here's what we're doing.
36:56.84
Andrew
can i you know Can I get some feedback from you? And it has been crickets. I have gotten nobody no responses from that.
37:07.83
Sean
Got it.
37:08.44
Andrew
so in like And with the other one, i I got responses within the first week or two. so
37:14.37
Sean
Gotcha.
37:16.27
Andrew
So trying to brainstorm him like what I should do there and then, Like what I should do to optimize the cold email stuff.
37:28.50
Andrew
and then also brainstorm, like what I should do to grow the mailing list, whether it's, you know, things I could do to get the cost of ads down or things I should be doing that are not ad based, uh, to get, get in front of people other than just like post on social media a bunch, you know, cause like, I don't have.
37:37.42
Sean
Yeah.
37:51.53
Andrew
a big network on social media for this audience. So I don't think that's really the solution here.
37:58.17
Sean
Okay. I think, well one, one thing that comes to mind is this like, this, this, Reddit tool that if you type in SEO, you can see all the traffic that goes to all the other SEO subreddits and my thinking is like, to start engaging there. And I think there is something like, I think there is something to be said about actually cold DMing, like,
38:21.59
Sean
one a day or like two a day people who engage in those communities and saying like hey can you and check it it out?
38:28.45
Andrew
Cold DMing on Reddit? You think that would work?
38:30.03
Sean
Yeah. I mean I get responses on it all the time.
38:34.36
Andrew
You cold DM people on Reddit?
38:35.64
Sean
Yeah, I called him. That was, that was going to be my growth strategy for, for stack wise, by the way, was the cold DM people on Reddit and saying like, go down R slash stack advice and just go like, yo, the stack look cool.
38:47.14
Sean
Rebuilt it in, rebuilt it in stack wise here. Here you go. Here's the thing. And I was going to call DM people on Reddit. They respond. People respond all the time.
38:56.64
Andrew
Fascinating.
38:57.71
Sean
Yeah.
38:57.84
Andrew
I feel like predators hate anything that feels too marketing.
39:01.84
Sean
Just don't market to him. Just cool like yeah just change change the language a little bit.
39:03.18
Andrew
Yeah.
39:05.58
Andrew
Just sound like a human.
39:07.22
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
39:07.88
Andrew
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I wanted to test Reddit ads. but although I'm also, I'm a little skeptical that like they're definitely SEO people on Reddit, but I'm also a little skeptical that like the more professional like agency SEO people are on Reddit all that heavily, but I could be wrong.
39:11.71
Sean
Yeah.
39:18.32
Sean
yeah
39:27.46
Sean
We can find out when we do a little search and see. I definitely think they're looking at the looking at the connections.
39:30.87
Andrew
Yeah, do a little test.
39:34.02
Sean
There is a segment that is more like they connected like R slash start somewhere slash like R slash like like entrepreneur like the people who are like starting a company for the first time.
39:44.13
Sean
There is that that world.
39:44.71
Andrew
Gotcha.
39:45.73
Sean
But there is like like there's like R slash tech SEO. r slash I looked at this earlier because I got really curious. But like R slash big SEO and all this sort of stuff.
39:53.86
Andrew
Yeah.
39:53.90
Sean
So I think there are like pro communities in there that you might be able to pull from.
39:56.31
Andrew
Okay.
39:58.66
Sean
So that's one thing.
40:00.01
Andrew
Okay. So, so your thought process here is like DM these people. What's the ask?
40:06.43
Sean
So this is my other thing.
40:05.81
Andrew
Do you just.
40:09.22
Sean
like i
40:13.59
Sean
I think people like free shit and they were like free money, but instead of getting them real money, what if you just gave them credits in your thing?
40:15.40
Andrew
huh
40:20.42
Andrew
Yeah.
40:20.47
Sean
Like you're like, Hey, like we'd love to show you this thing. If you like it, we'll have to give you like the next three months for free or when it's launched. Do you want to be on the wait list? Cause then they get the value of the thing, but you don't have to actually spend money.
40:34.87
Andrew
Yeah.
40:34.95
Sean
You spend a future money on them, but then there are at least the user, you know?
40:39.07
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about this.
40:39.65
Sean
and Okay.
40:42.07
Andrew
It's like, is there an incentive I can start to offer people to make them more likely to join the waitlist, more likely to convert from waitlist to like design partner to like, you know, we we've thought about like, so
40:50.07
Sean
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
40:57.80
Andrew
Yeah, right now we've got, we've got the waitlist, which is just emails. Just, Hey, someone gives us their email says like, tell me about it in the future.
41:06.51
Sean
Yeah.
41:06.73
Andrew
So there's like, I would love to have a good incentive for people to join the waitlist.
41:09.70
Sean
Mm
41:10.45
Andrew
That's more than just, Hey, I think this tool is cool.
41:13.14
Sean
hmm.
41:13.80
Andrew
and then there's anyone who talks to us and commits to being an early adopter, like an early customer says like, yes, I will pay some price for this thing.
41:24.97
Sean
Hmm.
41:25.22
Andrew
And like, I will give you feedback. and like does a call with us.
41:31.01
Sean
Yeah.
41:32.44
Andrew
we we put those people into a design partner list.
41:35.60
Sean
Yeah.
41:36.96
Andrew
And so you know I think I would like to have two incentives, like an incentive to get on the wait list. And maybe that doesn't maybe you don't need an incentive there.
41:44.10
Sean
Hmm.
41:45.91
Andrew
Maybe that's just like just do the whatever. But then I think we probably need like a design partner incentive. And to your point, like not cash. Part of the problem is like I'm trying to figure out like
42:02.07
Andrew
So like discounts are one thing we could offer, discounts or, to your point, credits, like free credits or something like that. the tricky part is like to offer those in a way that's coherent.
42:15.64
Andrew
We kind of have to pick pricing and I think we know three months for free.
42:20.89
Sean
I'll just queue in three months for free.
42:24.92
Sean
Yeah. And then, and then, you know, roll it, walk it back. If it's like, if they're going to use like a million, if they're going to like crawl a million sites, but like three months of, you know, like if you go to app Sumo, you can buy a lifetime access, but it's not real lifetime access.
42:38.39
Sean
It's like lifetime access, but you're cut off at the knees at a certain number of features or like a certain number of like a lifetime access for ah ah SEO would be like lifetime access to the platform, but a thousand crawl credits or a month or something like that.
42:51.96
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
42:52.15
Sean
Do you just have a like. I mean, you could you could do a couple of things, right? Like, they're SEO people, so you can even say you'll backlink to them on the site of, like, when we launch, we'll have a list of advisors, and we'll be happy to do that, make you and me a mega supporter.
43:04.39
Andrew
i did i I was thinking about that. I was thinking that would be kind of cool.
43:08.36
Sean
Yeah.
43:09.24
Andrew
You've got to be kind of careful about it.
43:12.68
Sean
Sure.
43:10.46
Andrew
like don't want to Don't want to seem too shady, but just like, hey, will design partners get
43:13.83
Sean
Sure.
43:18.29
Andrew
yeah
43:18.47
Sean
Yeah.
43:20.98
Sean
There's also like, uh, just across my mind on the topic of giving you all stuff. Like it would be interesting if the text was like the DM or the the email was like, if we take your advice, I will like, we will pay you for it.
43:34.87
Sean
Like, like make it more of an advice bounty sort of thing, right? They can give you and tell you things, but if you don't, if you don't use it, then it's whatever.
43:39.15
Andrew
Huh.
43:43.03
Sean
But if you do use it, uh, you have to, you have to pay out.
43:47.21
Andrew
Hmm. So, so here's the other thing. Like what I'm really trying to get is like kind of like pre-sales, right? I'm trying to get early, early adopters.
43:53.46
Sean
Yeah.
43:55.13
Andrew
And so if I give people three months for free, then I'm not necessarily validating that these people would pay money for the tool.
43:57.70
Sean
Mm hmm.
44:03.74
Andrew
right um not
44:04.31
Sean
True.
44:05.69
Andrew
So how do i how do I structure it in a way that I'm still getting them? And you know we've said we don't really want to do pre-sales to the point of like actually asking people to pull out a credit card.
44:16.49
Sean
Got it.
44:17.40
Andrew
But like yeah, how do you how could we structure it so that it's like you've still got some skin in the game, right? like You're not just getting this thing for free.
44:29.06
Andrew
you're, you're putting something on the line. cause I think that also gets, makes people a little more motivated to be a little bit more involved. Maybe it is pull out a card. Maybe it's like, Hey, being a design partner, you've got to pay $50. Like maybe we sell three months for $50 or something. I don't know.
44:51.07
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can do you could do like heavily discounted year where it's like, I don't know, 200 bucks for the year or what is whatever. Yeah, I don't know. That's or 240 for the year. That's 24 bucks 20. No, 20 bucks a month or something or something like even cheaper.
45:13.02
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think. I mean, is is is the product at a stage where they can even pull their credit card though?
45:21.51
Andrew
No, no, no, no. Yeah. we We don't have anything built yet. So that's the other thing. Like I've been talking to all these people and it's like, Hey, are like, are you willing to commit to being a design partner? Design partners will pay this price ah starting on, you know, as soon as we have something ready, but we're not going to charge you until you're getting value. So like.
45:22.15
Sean
Okay. Yeah.
45:41.66
Andrew
You can use it for free while it's in alpha or whatever. And then, like, as soon as it's, you know, you're getting value from it, it's it's generating useful results, then we'll start charging you 50 bucks a month or whatever.
45:45.14
Sean
Right.
45:54.18
Sean
Right, right. I don't know. We can send a contract.
45:59.29
Andrew
Yeah.
45:59.36
Sean
Like this doesn't have to be like, you know, it doesn't really have to be that enforceable, but it makes them makes them at least. I think I think it weeds out. I don't think it weeds out your opportunists because they'll just be like, whatever, I'm not going to pay for it later.
46:12.46
Sean
But like it does weed out like the people who are like probably aren't going to really use it.
46:20.17
Andrew
yeah, LOI is like an option.
46:19.21
Sean
um
46:23.04
Sean
Yeah. Let me, before I, instead of solving it so quickly, let me think about it.
46:30.33
Andrew
Yeah.
46:31.61
Andrew
Okay, so, but but basically your your idea right now, we can we can sort of haggle over the details, but like your idea right now is cold DM people on Reddit continue to cold email people, but give something, make a ah more more compelling offer that isn't cash, but is some sort of incentive.
46:38.81
Sean
Sure.
46:50.47
Andrew
Give people an incentive in cold DMs on Reddit, LinkedIn, email, that is like some incentive to talk to you and become a design partner.
47:03.33
Andrew
Yeah. And then and then we can haggle over the details with balancing it.
47:07.43
Sean
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's one idea.
47:08.51
Andrew
OK.
47:10.21
Sean
I'm trying to go for like something that isn't like a gift to get thing. I mean,
47:17.18
Sean
you know I do think that I do think that like joining in on the community would be super interesting I don't know how you feel about them that but like there are those SEO things you can build it in public a little bit with these guys and say like hey we're doing this thing we experience this issue I do you think there's another like this is This is maybe a distraction, but I do think there is like some ICP here that isn't the SEO pro, but it's the secret SEO pro at an agency. like Every Webflow agency has a person who like has the who who like basically has now had to learn enough SEO to provide ah good good SEO services.
48:00.58
Andrew
Sure.
48:00.99
Sean
on the website, but it's kind of a pain in the ass to go and do all those things. I'm just speaking from from experience now.
48:08.58
Andrew
Yeah.
48:09.70
Sean
like So it's really useful for me to be able to have all these things fixed and basically monitor all the fixes, like like to do like SEO governance through the platform or across all the sites developers are making.
48:22.61
Sean
so
48:25.24
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, the my feeling right now on like diluting our ICP so like our ICP we've said is SEO, you know, someone at an SEO agency or a freelancer like, you know, and my concern with diluting that too much is just like,
48:38.46
Sean
Yeah.
48:44.44
Andrew
gets harder to figure out how to how to contact people. like Because there are definitely SEO pros at digital marketing agencies, but there's also digital marketing agencies who don't touch SEO.
48:47.94
Sean
Yeah.
48:55.95
Andrew
And so it like you end up like reaching a bunch of people who don't care. And then just the people who this is the most painful for, and I think we need to stay laser focused on them right now.
49:07.47
Andrew
like We can expand our ICP later. But I think for right now, we need to stay focused focused on who this is the most painful for. And that is you know someone who is doing SEO every day.
49:18.73
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I ah ah agree, I agree.
49:21.76
Andrew
Yeah.
49:22.23
Sean
and
49:22.96
Andrew
i'll take I'll take anyone else. If if the the seo secret SEO pro wants to join, I'm not going to tell them no.
49:26.17
Sean
Yeah.
49:30.27
Andrew
I'm happy to have them on the waiting list, happy to talk to them, happy to include them as a design design partner even. i' just not gonna I don't think it's smart for me to start going after other ICPs yet.
49:41.80
Sean
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
49:43.57
Andrew
Yeah.
49:44.17
Sean
There are, there are like, uh, there are like ah SEO Slack communities, like, Jackie, I'm blanking on his name.
49:55.06
Sean
I don't know if it's Cho. Uh, yeah.
49:56.80
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone someone just mentioned just mentioned him to me the other day, Jackie Cho.
50:02.82
Sean
Yeah.
50:03.22
Andrew
they were actually, I think they were gonna try to introduce me to him.
50:07.45
Sean
i i I told you about.
50:08.05
Andrew
Is it Jackie Cho? Is that his name?
50:10.20
Sean
It might not be Jackie Cho. I might be confusing him with Jakey Cho.
50:14.25
Andrew
It was something, uh, I feel Jackie C H uh, C H O U.
50:16.44
Sean
it's the Yeah, jackie yeah yeah yeah Jackie Cho with a U, not CHO.
50:23.91
Sean
so yeah jc Yeah, J-C-K-Y-C-H-O-U. Yeah. Now I feel like an asshole. Cause like, I don't know if I'm saying his last name right.
50:33.31
Andrew
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You yeah.
50:34.72
Sean
Because...
50:35.21
Andrew
You've definitely told me about this guy before. I recognize him now.
50:37.23
Sean
Yeah, yeah.
50:39.20
Andrew
Cool.
50:40.16
Sean
Yeah.
50:41.13
Andrew
Yeah, this is another thing that that maybe I should do is reach out to some more ah ah SEO like influencer types and see if they are interested in like exploring it and see if I can you know work something out with them. um you know I feel like it's early to build like a referral program or anything like that. but like ah Again, wondering kind of like what the what the incentive is for them to get involved and like promote us.
51:03.92
Sean
Dude, i saw I saw a indie hacker's landing page design the other day, this morning, and in the nav bar it says affiliates, parentheses, 50%.
51:18.03
Andrew
ah
51:25.83
Andrew
Holy crap, that's insane.
51:28.34
Sean
yeah but that's not the point it doesn't that's so smart just put the fucking affiliate thing like put the like don't even say partner program it is insane 50% is insane so it deserves to be in the nav bar but like that's pretty smart like that
51:44.05
Andrew
To just, to just be really transparent about the percentage that you're giving away to attract people.
51:49.29
Sean
Yeah, and to like put it in the nav link, I think it was like a Microsoft tool, so it made a lot of sense to me that like if they wanted to grow, they wanted affiliates. And to me, like the SEO people who are going to use your app are probably familiar with the affiliate marketing world because I think it's a very similar...
52:06.99
Andrew
Oh, yeah. OK. Advise dot.so, an active community of online builders and SEO schemers.
52:12.45
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
52:15.06
Andrew
Sick. OK, I should.
52:15.81
Sean
Yeah.
52:17.07
Andrew
Oh, $139 per month.
52:18.12
Sean
yeah Yeah, that's expensive. But all the people a lot of the the people in there are like, so so Jackie for the longest time was making money off of partnerships. And what partnerships means is you are a high DR website, content website. you you You probably run the content slash do the SEO, did all this sort of stuff, or maybe you have a team.
52:38.26
Sean
and like he would basically, or or your high DR site, and you don't really do the, you don't do as much content, he basically comes in and he puts like 10 blog posts on your thing that like rank really well, brings in traffic, but those sites have like affiliate links out to his other things.
52:53.87
Andrew
Mhm.
52:54.37
Sean
he makes the money off of that.
52:57.29
Andrew
Interesting.
52:57.92
Sean
Yeah, yeah. And then I think he helps you know do SEO things because of because of that. So he improves the quality of your website, but he also gets affiliate commission off of off of the affiliate commission off of like these other things he's promoting through it. And and and I think you get you get a cut as well. So it's like a better partnership for you.
53:18.46
Sean
I don't know if I'm misrepresenting that or not, but that's my general idea. Advise was a really great way to get lead gen, because it was a lot of people who were like into this stuff and have high DR sites that maybe are not do using it for all that it's worth. so
53:32.12
Andrew
Cool. Okay, so the things that i'm I'm taking away from this are I need to figure out an incentive to get people from the waiting list to become a design partner or like to convert people to design partner right off the bat, figure out how to replace my hey, I'll pay you your hourly rate incentive with a an incentive related more towards the product. So that's step one. Step two is like you know in addition, yeah work that incentive into cold email and then also try some like cold outreach on Reddit or LinkedIn. And then the next idea is kind of like get into some ah ah SEO communities, Reddit,
54:16.94
Andrew
ah ah advise, you know get into some SEO communities, hang out there, yeah do the classic, be a helpful member of the community, and then like talk about talk about your tool. and And then tie it up in that is like maybe there's the opportunity to like connect with some SEO influencers and try to figure out like how to make it worth it for them to like be on your side and be excited about your thing.
54:44.55
Sean
Yeah. And I also don't, I think you should stop calling it a design partner. I think you should make it, I think it should play to ego a little bit and call it like a founding user or private beta member. Mainly because I think we say design partner because we do stuff with security people and B2B. I don't think I've ever met an SEO person that has told like,
55:06.49
Sean
Like, like I just don't think it's part of their jargon. I don't think it's part of like the marketing world in that way. It's, it feels very, very enterprise to me to say this man partner.
55:14.33
Andrew
Okay. Okay, cool.
55:16.28
Sean
And I think I see, I mean, I like founding user because there's like an extra incentive of like you know, like, like, i I've seen founding users of benefits be anything from like, you paid early, you got a discount, but you also just get a little badge and next to your name that says founding user. you get recognition on ah on a page or something and like, that's it. That's the That's the benefit of it. It's cool, right? You got to be a part of something early and and whatever. you can add like You can add more benefits to it as well for your founding users. You can also limit it to a number, like a small number of people. That way, it's not every SEO person under the sun. But I do think it's like a cool viral loop to, I guess it's not totally a viral loop, but it's a cool.
56:03.75
Sean
like Like, quick way to get, I think, people who have buy-in on what you're building.
56:10.24
Andrew
Cool.
56:10.88
Sean
Yeah.
56:11.81
Andrew
Yeah. It's also a way to start to build some social proof before we have is if if people want, you we I can throw up a page on the website and be like, hey, every founding user gets yeah gets their name and a link on the website.
56:15.30
Sean
Mm.
56:19.48
Sean
Yeah.
56:25.80
Sean
Yeah.
56:25.89
Andrew
And then it's like, cool. you Now we've got social proof. of Like, hey, check out all these founding users.
56:31.78
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
56:34.13
Andrew
interesting, interesting.
56:34.28
Sean
Absolutely.
56:35.60
Andrew
Okay, cool. Yeah. That gives me some good stuff to think about. I think I've the, I really, I need to figure out the incentive piece and then just like, you know, decide kind of what I want it, how I want it.
56:49.99
Andrew
How I want to structure that like do I try to do I have one incentive to get on the waiting list and then another to get to become a founding user. Do I just like Yeah, just what's what's the flow there got to think through that a little bit but cool man.
57:02.26
Sean
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
57:05.35
Andrew
Well, we're about a time you got anything else for today.
57:10.03
Sean
no i'll date you next week on what happens to stackwise and that's it let me know how let me know how all that goes let me know if you end up having success dm'ing people on reddit so i can be like how i was right yeah cool all right i'll see you later bye
57:19.07
Andrew
Yeah.
57:25.89
Andrew
We'll do, we'll do for sure. All right. Cool. Later.