How to replace yourself in your agency

In this episode, Sean talks about getting himself out of day-to-day client work at Miscreants, and Andrew provides an update on his slow progress with customer acquisition for MetaMonster. Andrew shares an idea for a side project and they talk about Dharmesh buying the chat.com domain and "flipping" it to OpenAI.

Links:
For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:00.98
Sean
All right, what is this thing, Andrew? What are you gonna tell me? even It's been 30 minutes since you told me we we're changing what we're talking about today. Now you've been, okay, go.

Andrew
let me Let me just play this for you and I think it'll all make sense.

Sean
Okay.

Andrew
and

Andrew
hoping you can so into me baby

Andrew
Do you know what this is yet?

Sean
Yes. I know what this is. I know what this is. This is the... I feel bad for all Asian guys in SF. I'll never outdo you, you tech bros. It's fucking over.

Andrew
Wait, wait! graves keepki godam oh

Andrew
I never thought I would hear Mark Zuckerberg with T paid singing sweat, drip down my balls.

Sean
z pain that's what what what do you want to do you want to dissect the lyrics you want to

Andrew
Oh, ski, ski motherfucker. Oh, ski, ski. God damn.

Andrew
Oh my God. I found this and I was like, holy shit. Clear everything. This is all I want to talk about.

Sean
honey

Andrew
I think it's just fucking hilarious. And like, I can't decide if I like love it or hate it. Like I can't decide if it's the best thing ever or the most cringe thing ever. And I think I love it. And I think I love it in part because it is kind of cringe and he just doesn't give a fuck.

Sean
for what it's worth though maybe this was the light at the this was the this was the one piece of uplifting news in recent times my executor the one who keeps us going

Andrew
Right. Oh my God.

Andrew
Yeah. So that, that is the, uh, Mark Zuckerberg collaboration with T-Pain. Uh, their group is unofficially or officially, I guess, Z-Pain. Um, they have one single, which is an acoustic version of Gitlo, which Mark recorded for his wife Priscilla because apparently it's the song they listened to every anniversary.

Sean
Yep, and then you played it for her, and...

Andrew
Is there a video of him playing it for her?

Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew
Oh my God, I gotta go watch that. i I mean, he's found something that works. Being a wife guy is working for his brand right now and he is leaning all all the way in.

Andrew
and

Sean
Hey, you know what they say about wife guys, though?

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
on the internet. okay I just hope he doesn't.

Andrew
Yep, it's gonna blow up at some point.

Sean
I don't think he was on the ditty list, so we'll be okay.

Andrew
But...

Sean
we might or Or the FC list, so we might be okay.

Andrew
For what it's worth, I love T-Pain so much.

Sean
Yeah, he's great. He's great.

Andrew
T-Pain's Tiny Desk Concert is one of my all-time favorites. It's so good.

Sean
i I just love that he is just doing side quests at the moment. Like, the guy's a genius.

Andrew
Zuck or T-Pain?

Sean
No, no, T-Pain. Zuck, I guess, is also doing a side quests at the moment, but like...

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
I'll just like I'll watch random youtubers and like sometimes T-Pain will just show up like like that are not related to things related to him you know I'm watching like a car guy youtuber boom T-Pain's winning a drift competition yeah I'm on twitch all of a sudden or I'm not on I'm browsing twitch and all of a sudden T-Pain's a streamer I don't know yeah

Andrew
Mm-hmm.

Andrew
Mm hmm. Holy shit, that's cool.

Andrew
By the way, on the Zuck side, I just listened to the acquired episode about Metta, and it made me realize that like. I feel like public perception of Metta is changing a little bit like I feel like Elon Musk buying Twitter.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
has kind of has taken a lot of the heat off of meta.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
And so now everyone's like, Elon's elon's the evil one.

Sean
He's almost like, it could be so much worse.

Andrew
And yeah, Elon's like, you guys think 2016 Facebook was bad?

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Bro, hold my drink.

Sean
Listen, when you gotta be the best at everything, you know?

Andrew
Including being a massive fucking troll.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Yeah, but it made me realize that like I don't hate meta as much as I used to. And I i don't know if that's like.

Sean
Same.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
I'm a meta shareholder. This is not financial advice, but I'm a meta shareholder. I'm here for it. But it's made me a lot of money.

Andrew
I mean, I'm a meta shareholder in that I hold ETFs that have some of everything, but I don't I don't have any individual meta shares.

Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew
I don't really do stock picking. We've talked about this.

Sean
Yeah, yeah, we have. Yeah, we have.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
I agree. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think he's done a lot of really smart things. I think it makes sense because ah ah if you get into wearable or wearables, you naturally get into fashion. And if you're going to get into fashion, you have to have some level of like, cool.

Sean
And he doesn't have to be Kanye West in 2018. Cool.

Andrew
I was about to say that's an interesting choice.

Sean
He just has to be like, he doesn't like like life of, life of Pablo. Cool. It doesn't feel like Kanye West easy.

Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean
Cool. But he just has to be like all birds. Cool. You know?

Andrew
Yeah, yeah, that's probably true.

Sean
I like, I like, uh,

Andrew
By the way, they In the the meta the acquired episode, they were talking about the new device. um haven't seen much talk about it.

Sean
the

Andrew
like I haven't seen many people saying anything.

Sean
meta Ray bands or anything.

Andrew
Yeah, yeah. like they They had some name for it. I forget what the the new name is.

Sean
I'm thinking of getting one, by the way, the meta Ray bands, or are you talking about something else?

Andrew
Let's see if I can find it. What's it called?

Andrew
i thought it had I thought they set had a different name for it. Maybe there's like a new device that's like, where are the Ray-Bans are going, like, I don't know, but, yeah, they were saying it's whatever the newest devices.

Andrew
It's pretty impressive. and And I, yeah, I haven't heard anyone.

Sean
Nice.

Andrew
Like, I feel like when vision pro came out, of and it was all over tech Twitter. And then I feel like I haven't heard anything about this.

Sean
I mean, they're canceling it. Apple's discontinuing it. They just did not make sales.

Andrew
The vision pro already.

Sean
They're killing it. Yeah.

Andrew
Damn. That was fast.

Sean
It is not their platform.

Andrew
well

Sean
Yeah. I mean, they might come up with something else later. Who knows, right? But I mean, I want i i want the Ray-Bans. I feel like, OK.

Andrew
Well... Why? Why do you want the ribbons?

Sean
because because it looks cool I don't know because like it looks it looks like it is actually pretty functional and good and is pretty I don't know

Andrew
Are they only 300 bucks?

Sean
Yeah, yeah, if you want to want it cheaper, I can get it to you cheaper. I've got some employee discount connects.

Andrew
What does that mean?

Andrew
Oh, OK, nice.

Sean
That's all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they're doing a sale right now, too, for 30% off. But I like the move to do the transparency frame as well.

Sean
I think it's ugly, but I think it's cool as a general like virtue signal sort of thing of like we want you to know there's tech in the glasses when you wear walk around instead of like You see those Harper kids that like wore them like smart glasses and then docks everyone they bumped into.

Andrew
What's the transparency frame thing?

Sean
It's just it the acrylic or whatever material the glasses are, arch and are semi-transparent so you can see the wires inside.

Andrew
e Interesting.

Sean
Because it's kind of an aesthetic. You know how like people put like like and like ah ah internals of your phone as a sticker on your phone?

Andrew
It looks like their matte black one.

Andrew
It doesn't look super transparent.

Sean
No, you have to get the transparent one. There's like a specific transparent color way.

Andrew
Oh, okay, I see.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really want one. I just am worried it's not going to fit my big ass head.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
So.

Andrew
Yeah, I just don't, I don't think I would pay for prescription lenses in one of these unless it was like, ish, maybe, I guess, I don't know.

Sean
But your insurance will pay for it. Yeah, nevermind, I don't know if, okay, my insurance will pay, we'll pay $150 of it. Anyway, I gotta use my, some of my insurance this year.

Andrew
Yeah. Anyway, sorry for getting your hopes, hopes up.

Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you guys could see the slack of Andrew was like, scratch everything else. I want to talk about one thing on the pod. And it's like, is it? She started guessing. I thought you proposed.

Andrew
Yeah. Sean thought I got married. He thought I do have a co-founder.

Sean
Yeah. Thought you had a co-founder. Thought you got a costumer. Yeah, I thought you had a full time. I thought you had a customer that made fun of her misspelling customer.

Sean
Yeah, it's been a while, 30 minutes before this show.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
A lot of emotional roller coasters.

Andrew
Yeah. What do you actually want to talk about today?

Sean
Well, I want to talk about, well, first of all, very quickly, just an event about that supplements thing. I've seen someone else do it.

Andrew
Sublimates.

Sean
the good supplements thing i sent you like that guy yeah it's and that's okay it's okay i'm sad it's okay it's okay it's it's okay every every one of these podcasts these days is just me self-soothing yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean yeah

Andrew
Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. I misheard you. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew
Yeah.

Andrew
You find someone else who built a sack wise club and you're like, you're like, it could have been me making no money. So hawking supplements that people don't need.

Andrew
It could have been me.

Sean
Exactly. And now I gotta find something else. God. I don't know, my my focus has been a lot on miscreants. I think the nice thing is...

Sean
After I quit doing stack-wise, there was a lot of, I didn't realize how much mental space got freed up. Because I didn't have to look for a dev, and I didn't have to do all this stuff, and now I've just been spending a lot of time thinking about the agency, so that's been cool.

Andrew
Nice. What are you thinking about?

Sean
Just overall goal-setting. I think I know how to replace myself, finally.

Andrew
Oh, okay.

Andrew
That's huge.

Sean
it just might take three and a half people but you know that doesn't mean i'm not a 10x engineer i'm a 3.5x marketer i guess uh yeah i think i can replace myself i think with ben and yarick who've been awesome like ben can do the branding yarick does and does some like design

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
And I need to find a marketer, like a product marketer, who can also do like website strategy, which I don't think a lot of product marketers do.

Andrew
Yeah, I feel like that's, that's doable.

Sean
Anything I just have to like basically.

Andrew
And then that's all on the delivery side. What about like the, the agency side of, okay.

Sean
Oh, oh, I don't want to replace myself there. I want to I want to do that. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
You just want to get rid of all of the delivery work.

Sean
Yeah, yeah, I would really like to stop doing, like, icy work at the moment.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
So I think I'm getting closer and closer, which is good. Like, I've been able to, yeah.

Andrew
Yeah, that's a good it's a really good goal. Replacing yourself in all the icy stuff is a good first step to you continuing to remove yourself from the day-to-day more and more.

Sean
Thanks.

Sean
Thanks. Yeah, and then like a mid-level digital marketing like marketing ops person who can, you know, buy ads and stuff like that. So yeah, I think that's.

Sean
I feel hopeful around it. I really like the team where we're at now.

Andrew
Cool.

Sean
So that's been a lot of my life. And my Worth Driving thing I picked up on Reddit, because I had a little bit of a traffic spike there.

Sean
That was cool.

Andrew
Which thing?

Sean
The like ah ah SEO experiment. Yeah, the SEO experiment with war Wordpress, that car blog.

Andrew
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.

Sean
Yeah, that's my update. How about you? what are you sort of

Andrew
Well, tell me more about that first, like what it got picked up on Reddit. What happened?

Sean
Oh, no, like it just had like an extra 100 users visited a day for like a week.

Andrew
Nice.

Sean
And that was it. It wasn't anything crazy.

Andrew
Are you trying to convert those people to anything? Like, are you purely looking for eyeballs or do you have like a newsletter signup or something?

Sean
I don't know what I'm actually going to do with it. It's something that I like was sort of dealing with a friend just for fun.

Andrew
Mm-hmm.

Sean
My goal was to do AdSense. I got denied by AdSense probably because either weren't enough there wasn't enough content and it looked kind of crappy. It was kind of a way for me to like see what WordPress was up to and try that stuff out.

Andrew
Mm-hmm Yeah

Sean
spend a lot of, I got, I'm still in a lot of paralysis analysis with Ghost by the way. I keep thinking about switching to Ghost. I hate, by the way, and Ghost the team if you're listening to this, I hate that I can sign up for a Ghost account on your thing.

Sean
Cancel the trial later on when I'm like not ready to buy and when I want to go revisit it I can't put in my ghost domain to open the account to go buy it for and a month or buy it for something I have to email your support team to then Visit the so I get access back to my account And that's been also so slowly bugging bugging me a little bit But

Andrew
Hm.

Sean
I don't know like I still feel a lot of paralysis analysis around it I like around between ghost and between ghost and WordPress pretty much you can it's like it's also like around like if I want to self host versus not self host and like

Andrew
Around the product or switching to ghost? Or the but not the product, the... Gotcha.

Andrew
I mean, honestly, like as much as I love ghost and want more people to try it, like you should probably just leave it where it is. It's working. It's functional. It's fine.

Sean
Yeah, WordPress sucks.

Andrew
Like what?

Sean
But every time I log into WordPress, I want to like scratch my eyes out.

Andrew
Yeah. That's why I built our site in Astro and spinal, which makes no sense.

Sean
What the fuck is Spital? wait

Andrew
Spinal is the CMS that I'm using. It's like the Markdown only, like the Git-based CMS that I'm using for for content on the new MetaMonster site.

Sean
oh

Sean
Got it.

Andrew
So the framework is Astro, and then the CMS is Spinal, which is a terrible name.

Sean
Got it.

Sean
got yeah anyway i think that's i think that's it i mean we got to chat last week that was oh sorry i have one more thing i'm sorry i'm gonna hug the next five minutes are you watching the jake paul and like tyson fight on friday

Andrew
It's a cool little CMS, but a little clunky, but but cool, simple.

Andrew
Cool.

Andrew
No, I refuse to give Jake Paul any of my attention. I absolutely refuse.

Sean
Yeah, but it's Mike Tyson!

Andrew
It's I'll, I'll see what happens afterwards on Twitter.

Sean
It's the goat!

Andrew
I or blue sky or whatever.

Sean
I hope he's hungry. I hope Mike Tyson's super hungry. I don't know.

Andrew
Oh, I hope he gets fucking obliterated and then I'll just watch the highlights on repeat for like all of Saturday.

Sean
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
But, uh, no, I refuse to, to tune into it live.

Sean
I gotta be honest with you, I'm a little bit concerned about it.

Andrew
I don't, I don't want to give Jake Paul any money. Yeah.

Andrew
Well, I mean, I'm concerned. I mean, one, the dude's like 60.

Sean
60 yeah for like around 60 old I guess so I guess it could be scripted that's true anyway

Andrew
Yeah.

Andrew
And more importantly, it's probably staged. It's probably like already written.

Andrew
I don't know. Jake Paul's a bitch.

Sean
Well, so let me tell you how much of a bitch he is.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
Jake Paul has won a lot of fights recently. jake but The fights that Jake Paul wins, like against Anderson Silva, not like recently, recently, and like his his match history, like he's beaten Anderson Silva, I think, or or something like that.

Andrew
Has he been fighting recently? Like to fight? Yeah.

Sean
The only ones he's winning are people that are way older than him. and Anyone who fights at his age just gets demolished.

Andrew
Yeah. Of course.

Sean
Yeah, but he's like beating up on, that's elder. He's just, that's just elder abuse at that point.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
But he's a fucking, he's a fucking bitch and he's like, I'm going to make a bunch of money off of these people who were big names and I'm only in it for making money and expanding my douchebag domain and.

Sean
Yeah.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
OK, well, I'm going to watch it all. You know, it goes on a friend's place.

Andrew
Hmm.

Sean
He's a big very big TV, so. Yeah.

Andrew
I don't know maybe I'll turn it on but I just I don't want my five pennies of Netflix dollars I mean it's already paid for I guess there's no but I don't want it to be successful because I don't want this to keep happening I don't want him to keep getting these bullshit fights I live in Michigan my my votes matter

Sean
Right. Yeah. And unlike electoral college votes, your one view matters. Okay, sorry.

Sean
That's true.

Andrew
I mean, I guess, yeah, the electoral college still kind of overrode me, my vote, but in Michigan.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Cool.

Sean
How's it been a monster?

Andrew
We should do like a, tell me if this is cringe or not, but I think we should do like a goal setting. episode before the end of the year where we talk about like what our goals are going to be for next year and like review goals from the past year.

Sean
Sure.

Sean
Sure. You know, I hate goal setting. Have I ever told you this?

Andrew
I fucking love goal setting. I do it too much.

Sean
I hate, I hate goal setting. I think it's, I think it kills my momentum every time I do it. I will do it with you. I will do it with you.

Andrew
That's hilarious because that feels so counter to my impression of you. like I feel like you like you're such a driven person. It's funny to me that if you put a name on the drive, you're like, okay, I'm bored now.

Sean
You have a mouse? This mouse runs because there's a cat. Even if it's an imaginary cat, this mouse mouse runs as a cat, not because there's cheese.

Andrew
See, i'm I'm just looking for that big ol' hunk of cheese.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
I just want cheese all the time.

Sean
Yeah. Um.

Andrew
When there's a cat over like over my shoulder, I just get really irritable.

Sean
Mm hmm.

Sean
Okay, give me po-boy then,

Andrew
Start just yelling at the cat.

Andrew
By the way, Maddie's out of town for 10 days right now, and so the cats are super fucking snuggly and it's the best. had I obviously miss my girlfriend, but I love snuggly cats.

Sean
Right.

Andrew
It's so good. Yeah.

Sean
yeah

Sean
Anyway, I was going to ask more about the cats and this is going to become a really uninteresting episode.

Andrew
Oh, right.

Sean
Wait, hold on, hold on.

Andrew
This is a business podcast.

Sean
I will do goal setting with you just to let you know.

Andrew
Okay.

Sean
like Typically how I'm always in is I do like fear setting, but I don't really do it in public. It's just like, so every time I am

Andrew
What is fear setting? That sounds so fucked up Sean. That sounds horrible. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Andrew
Fear setting?

Sean
Okay, not all of us have a therapist. Okay.

Andrew
You can fix that.

Sean
That's true. I do. My company does give it to me for free. I do give it. Yeah, it is part of the. Okay. If you're setting something, okay. Okay. Okay. So two, two context points. One is like this long, like, like, I think it's a Tim Ferriss talk a long time ago or something, or some random guy.

Sean
And this this whole idea that like, I think in Berlin, they did some social experiment, they got a bunch of people to write down like their goals for the year and and make like the sort of, you know, say like's to say what they want to do and then they like lock it up and put it somewhere in like a year, they revisit it and then they find out that most people didn't accomplish it.

Sean
And it's because goal setting generates a lot of dopamine and it kind of gets you amped up by the thing, but because you kind of write down that you've done it, you feel like you've done it already and you get the dopamine hit early on.

Andrew
Hmm.

Sean
so you don't continue with it. And I've always believed that to be true about myself. That being said, I'm sure there are ways to set measurable goals, better goal check-ins.

Andrew
Mhm.

Sean
There's a lot of different ways to stay accountable to what you want to do, and I'm sure there is. But what I have found that works for me is a really long time ago, I saw that Childish Gambino wrote on a hotel memo pad a bunch of things he was afraid of.

Sean
It was really burnt out at the time. I was like, okay. like Like, I know myself, I'm fear-driven, and I just wrote down with a bunch of things I'm afraid of. And every time I'm like close to burning out, that's the thing that I'll do in a notebook. I'll just like write down what I'm like incredibly terrified of. And it's cool to like look back and see how my fears have changed, you know, like in back, but like in college and and whatever. Yeah, it's ah ah it's a good way to, I don't know, it's a good and kind of sort of edgier way to to go about it.

Andrew
I guess do whatever floats your boat, man, but that sounds depressing as fuck to just constantly be like, I mean, I guess it's maybe there's some stoic, like a stoicism angle to it where if you like, if, if you are aware of your fears and you name them, then they have a little less power over you.

Andrew
Although it kind of sounds like you're like, no, I'm giving them more power. I want them to have all the power, give them power.

Sean
Yeah, I want them to all, ah ah it's not so much to, it doesn't like give me more anxiety. It's a good like venting session, but it also helps me kind of keep track of like reasoning for why I'm pursuing something, right? Like, because usually when I'm burnout burnt out, I'm like super tired and have lost all ah ah sense of motivation.

Sean
So it's a really good way for me to personally go, like okay, the reason I am you know working as hard on this thing is because I'm terrified of the of of this other thing and like being the result, and therefore I will do it.

Sean
It all completely falls apart. If I move far away enough, if I get ah far enough away from the fear, though, like fear of not making payroll is the thing that motivates me to to like drive, like build, drive the agency forward. But now we're in a, we're in like a comfortable spot.

Sean
And I can feel my motivation start to like dwindle. We're in a spot where like you know we make not an insignificant amount of ARR. There's like you know there's six figures in the bank. like We have a cushion in case we have just a month of no money. I thought that would happen. or or yeah But like like I never have to go back to the beginning of 2023. I might, but sorry.

Sean
For the time being, I'm not in the same state as I was in 2023, where I was terrified that this company would go under because I would miss a payroll for a week. which kept me going through like, well, like mentally conflict.

Sean
Yeah. Anyway, now I get like seven to eight hours of sleep and like, I'm way less productive and that's not, anyway, that's fine.

Andrew
That's good. That's healthy. That's the goal. That's what you should be doing. Jesus Christ, Sean.

Sean
How do you goal? Anyway, how do you goal set? How do you, how do you go about it?

Andrew
um um i let's We can save this for the goal-setting episode.

Sean
Fine.

Andrew
I don't i don't want to turn this into a goal-setting episode.

Sean
Oh, fine. Fine. Maybe this is Andrew.

Sean
Maybe the next episode will be Andrew teaches Sean.

Andrew
I will say, I will say one thing before we move on, which is just, one, I think you're totally right. Like goal setting can be kind of this. vanity project, it can be a thing that you do to like pat yourself on the back and make yourself feel good.

Andrew
One of the best counters to that is i that I love is this line from Tiago Forte, I think.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
I don't love all of his content. He's a little he's one of he's the second brain guy.

Sean
Yeah yeah yeah, he's a big sex guy on Twitter right now.

Andrew
Oh, he is?

Sean
Yeah yeah yeah, he's like all up in the ethical nominogamy stuff.

Andrew
interesting.

Sean
Anyway, tell me more about your goals.

Andrew
Well, when when I was reading his stuff, he was pretty much purely just like a notes dork.

Sean
yeah He just started thinking about with his original brain. that's this

Andrew
Okay. Well, anyway, he does have a line that I like, and I don't know if it's originally his or not, but he he says, goals without projects are hobbies.

Andrew
which is this idea that like, you can set a goal, but if you don't actually have a plan to achieve it, then it is just a ah vanity project. it's just something you do just for the sake, you know, it's just kind of a nice idea or no, no, no, maybe. Sorry. Sorry. I got that wrong.

Andrew
goals without projects are dreams projects without goals or hobbies. That's what it was. So a goal without a project is just like a dream. It's not really, there's nothing concrete to it.

Andrew
It's just like a nice thought, a nice idea.

Sean
Okay, it makes more sense. Yeah.

Andrew
And then a project without a goal is just something you're doing for the sake of doing it. Therefore it's a hobby.

Sean
Makes more sense.

Andrew
Yeah. Makes a lot more sense.

Andrew
But, um, so I do. And I don't always do a perfect job of like, you know, coming up with projects for all of my goals, but yeah.

Andrew
i set I set annual goals and then set quarterly goals for myself and then just kind of check in on them at the end of every quarter and set new ones and often will like

Sean
Mhm.

Andrew
carry forward goals that I didn't hit that are still important to me. And so then it builds a little bit of pressure. If something's been there for like two quarters and I still haven't hit it, you know, it gets me, it gets me thinking. So yeah.

Sean
For what it's worth, I am doing this goal-setting thing with my team at the moment. and Not as so much goal-setting, as much as like I wrote, put down some like objectives, for which I guess are the same thing, but I feel like some things for us to hit on a business side versus an internal versus whatever.

Andrew
Cool. Yeah.

Andrew
I think it's an important exercise as like the leader of a company because like the way you give people autonomy while maintaining a sense of ah ah like a clear like clear alignment on direction is good goal setting. like if people if If people know what's expected of them and know like what they' they should be aiming for, you can then give them the freedom to figure out how to hit that thing while you know, yeah, while still keeping everyone on the same page.

Sean
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that is the goal at the moment.

Andrew
The goal of the goals.

Sean
Yeah, I think all the goals.

Andrew
Cool, so MetaMonster.

Sean
Yeah, how's that goal?

Andrew
So I'm still struggling with cold email. pressed pause on my emails for the time being because they're just not working. And so I want to go back to the drawing board a little bit. So after our last podcast where we were talking about like offers and incentives, I started running a campaign with three different intro emails that had three different subject lines and three different like offers.

Andrew
And I may not have let the campaign play out enough. Like maybe I should have done some of my follow-ups and stuff. I mostly just sent out the first wave of emails. But one of them was offering like a $25 DoorDash gift card for talking to me. other one was offering 500 free credits to MetaMonster. And then the other one was offering like a 50% discount on MetaMonster.

Andrew
And i basically, it was just crickets. reply Open rates were really, really low, got zero replies. And so I just pressed pause. so I need to figure that out, need to kind of go back to the drawing board there and figure out am I going to keep putting time and energy into cold email? I just go back to what was working before, which was like offering to pay people their hourly rate. That doesn't feel like a good sustainable, like long-term strategy, but it might be what I need to do short-term to like gi you know get to 15 alpha users

Andrew
in the door. I think I'm also going to send out an email to the waiting list this week with a clearer offer and try to like hype up the alpha user. We're currently calling it alpha users is like that first wave. I know we talked about founding users. Founding users might be better. i I don't feel sold on that, but thinking like alpha is free and then an alpha users will be the people who get very first access and then it'll move into a paid beta where

Andrew
alpha users will have to pay, but they'll get like the best price and then people from the waiting lists will start to get onboarded and like waves. they'll get that beta price and then,

Andrew
or maybe a slightly higher, I don't know, something, and then go from there.

Sean
Got it.

Andrew
but So I'll probably try to send something to the waiting list, and but then I i kind of need to go back to the drawing board on cold emails. And I reached out to another friend to see kind of what works for him, see if I can get some advice there.

Andrew
And then other than that, We've added a bunch of kind of SEO-focused content. So I've got like five or six feature pages up now on the site, added an about page just to make the site feel a little bit more human. And then what I was just working on today that I'm pretty happy with how they turned out, although I might need to tweak the design of the page a little bit. But I've got a screaming frog alternative

Andrew
page and like a ah ah Yoast SEO alternative page, where I talk about like how MetaMonster is different from both of those.

Sean
Nice.

Andrew
And I'm pretty happy with the content, although I'm looking at this now and the images aren't loading.

Sean
Nice.

Andrew
So I need to need to get that fixed.

Sean
I see you even uploading it to some directories, maybe?

Andrew
I thought that was fixed.

Sean
Startup tile?

Andrew
Yeah, yep.

Sean
Nice.

Andrew
Did as part of this work did some like very, very basic backlinks work. So the majority of the directories that I've got on my list are things that won't really make sense until we have a product.

Andrew
But went ahead and did like, you know, F6s, indie hackers, link tree, you know, the things I could do pre-products that are more about building like a company profile kind of, and just start to get a ah ah few links.

Sean
Sweet. Sweet.

Andrew
So yeah, yeah. Doing that and then the other thing is we have updated some of the mocks based on feedback from you and a couple of other people. Didn't get as much feedback from like kind of our alpha list as I had hoped. We probably have 10 people on that list and only three or four have given us feedback. So don't know what that says about like how the actual alpha will go.

Andrew
uh to me that means probably we kind of we did something wrong to like not really engage those people or they just aren't really interested until we have a product i'm not sure which and in general it says to me we've got some work to do to still get some more people and then

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
figure out how to get them well engaged and get good feedback from them. But yeah, still got a little bit of feedback. And so we're able to make some some small changes to our mocks. And then, yeah, Austin's trying to get rolling on the dev work. So hopefully I'll have some exciting updates there in the next few weeks.

Sean
Do you feel like, how are you feeling about customer acquisition at the moment and with the cold email, like pausing cold emails and stuff?

Andrew
Yeah. So definitely feeling shakier than I was like, you know, a few weeks ago, it was like, cool. Google ads are working. They're a little expensive, but they're working. Cold emails working. It's a little expensive, but it's working. And now it's like, well, I can't tell if cold emails were really working or if it was just the, you know,

Andrew
The fact that we were paying people, yeah I can't tell if they'll if they will work without us paying people. And I'm not sure if like that means we should just pay people or we should not. And then like Google ads are still doing their thing.

Andrew
They're just cranking along, you know, waiting lists is up to 140 people. But again, it's, it's just expensive. It's like 10 bucks a signup. And if, you know, a hundred percent of those people convert to paying customers, I'll pay 10 bucks to sign up all day long.

Sean
Sure.

Andrew
that's not going to be the case.

Sean
Sure.

Andrew
And so we just, I just don't know what a reasonable customer acquisition cost is. until I know those numbers and I won't know those numbers until we have a product. So, I think like overall, this is like probably where, uh, I would expect to be at the stage is just pre-product things are changing and still super uncertain and shaky. And like, we've had some traction, but.

Andrew
It's not turned into, oh, we've got a clear sustainable distribution channel yet, which is probably not really a surprise, because like how often do you have a clear sustainable distribution channel pre-product?

Sean
Yeah, I think the only other times are like, you're B2B and you have friends who might buy things already, or you build an audience.

Andrew
Yeah, like you have a really solid network in in that space.

Sean
and Right. Right. Right. Or, or you're doing like the audience creator SAS route, but like, who knows how much of that converts and that's a whole other project on its own.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
yeah.

Andrew
Yeah. I'm basically trying to balance, like do a little bit of inbound and like build that muscle and just consistently do that. And then keep tweaking, tweaking and experimenting with, you know, paid ads and outbound stuff from time to time.

Sean
Yeah.

Sean
The, uh, the Reddit stuff, like the gray hat Reddit stuff is also pretty interesting. Like.

Andrew
Yeah, I still haven't done much with that. I've been, most of my time right now has been trying to get this kind of what I see as foundational content on the site. But that might be the next thing I should explore is like doing some some Reddit outreach, some like community outreach type stuff, responding to ah people on Twitter, responding to Reddit posts.

Sean
I'm very tempted. Very, very tempted.

Andrew
What do you mean?

Sean
that to to do more like Reddit gray hat-esque things at the moment.

Andrew
attempted

Andrew
for which project?

Sean
Just any product, like the worth driving stuff being one of them, that was the the main thing is I saw it literally work, right? Like somebody posted one of them, I don't think it was anyone.

Sean
It wasn't like a writer or my friend who, and Jerry, who was doing anything, so. Like that brought in leads. I've definitely posted on Reddit, you know, links out to random things on the Internet before and and like I've posted like a link out to and like I do this merch by Amazon thing. I think I've told you that before. I definitely linked out to that before like that on Reddit and said like, oh, yeah, I just bought this. Thought it was really cool under like a relevant as a relevant comment. And, you know, might have made like a couple hundred bucks off of like not like a hundred bucks off of it, but and

Andrew
Yeah, I mean, I think if I did it, I'd probably just own up to being like, hey, I'm working on this thing. This is an option. Here's a few other options, you know, based on what I'm seeing in the space.

Andrew
you know, try to be as white hat about it as as I can.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
But yeah, I think it's worth doing some of that stuff and at some point soon.

Sean
Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of, I was looking at, you were talking, I was looking at, like, just on Reddit, like, there's definitely people, you know, looking up Screaming Frog alternatives and what are good open source tools.

Andrew
Mm hmm.

Sean
There's a web-based, like, literally three months ago, web-based Screaming Frog alternative. So.

Andrew
Yeah, a lot of the people that I've seen in those just from like a really rough first search are looking like probably aren't our ICP because they're looking for like things that are even cheaper than screaming frog.

Andrew
And if you're looking for something that's cheaper than screaming frog, you are not a good customer because screaming frog is cheap as dirt.

Sean
Right.

Andrew
So I don't know what.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Like you, you just want free things. You want people to do everything for you for free.

Sean
I mean, there is there is a guy here that's like

Sean
There's a guy here who's like, I use a Samsung Dex. Do you know what that is?

Andrew
No Damn

Sean
Okay, it's a couple years ago, Samsung released a phone that could plug into a like a dongle and the dongle would then let you or just like any dongle you could use PC to HDMI it to a a monitor and then you could basically use that phone like a desktop or like a like of mobile, like computer basically.

Sean
and He's like, he was like, I'm currently looking for mobile alternatives to work on the run. I'm really satisfied with the Samsung Dex, but streaming frog is the exe program. I don't know if that's like your ICP, but it's really funny.

Andrew
It's not, it's 100% not. That's hilarious.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Yeah, I will say like, I found a thread about more enterprise options and like cloud based options and so I think there's some stuff there.

Sean
Mm-hmm. Gotcha.

Andrew
And if nothing else like Even if those, the people asking are in our ICP, like that stuff is getting surfaced in Google right now. That stuff is getting surfaced in like AI chat bots.

Sean
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Sean
Yep.

Andrew
And so other people searching for screaming frog alternatives for other reasons may come across that content and so, and find you.

Sean
Yep.

Sean
100%. 100%.

Andrew
So yeah, ah ah that's, that's definitely on the docket of, of things to try, at some point here soon. And then I think like.

Andrew
Once we have a product, I think we can do some like more interesting outbound stuff like where we could send you a link to an audit of your site or something potentially that could sometimes that stuff comes across as the wrong way. So we'd have to be careful about it. but like

Sean
Cool.

Andrew
We could try to do some stuff to you personalize the outbound in ways using the tool that could be cool.

Sean
Cool.

Andrew
And then I think like integrations will be a probably be a big driver for us, like getting a in the WordPress plugin store, getting in the Webflow plugin store, getting in Shopify.

Sean
Yep.

Sean
Yep. Yeah.

Andrew
There's a lot of competition there, but at least we can try to get some trickle of traffic coming from that.

Sean
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, especially with Webflow, right, if it's easy to like the you get a lot of built in distribution just off of the the you get a lot of built in distribution just off of the like Webflow showcase.

Sean
like you get put on the front page for a while and I don't know if people are publishing every day that you're there on the first at least within like the first one or two scrolls for a while and if it's like catchy enough as a thumbnail yeah like i' I've done like a random thing just to see it and like I've had people like clone in and hearted and stuff like not a lot it was like one CSS thing that I thought was cool but you know something there too what's sweet

Andrew
Mm, that's cool.

Andrew
Mm-hmm.

Sean
Nice. What is this side project you want to talk about, by the way?

Andrew
Okay, so I feel like this would be a good thing to test like bolt dot.new or something like that with, because I think it's a,

Sean
I'm logging in right now. I'm going to drop all the tokens on the scale. What's this?

Andrew
Sick. OK, so I'll give you the bad elevator pitch, and then I'll i'll give you like a ah more descriptive explanation.

Andrew
So the bad elevator pitch is Tinder for Legion for list building.

Sean
Okay. Okay.

Andrew
So basically, like,

Sean
Okay.

Andrew
I ah use Apollo and like, or, you know, there's LinkedIn, there's a bunch of ways you can grape leads and get ah ah a list of leads. but like actually sitting there and clicking through to a bunch of LinkedIn profiles and like, you know, clicking through on Apollo to get the preview and everything is like kind of a pain in the ass. and so.

Andrew
What I think like I would personally like to use is I'd like to be able to get a list of leads from Apollo, upload them to an application, and then just quickly tab through them and like you know swipe left, swipe right.

Andrew
Is this a good lead or is this a bad lead? like Pull up the like a little bit of information from the website.

Sean
Right.

Andrew
like give me Give me the basic information from the website. It could be a screenshot or it could be like just giving the H1, H2, yeah

Sean
Does Apollo do the enriching or do you need something that enrich it?

Andrew
What do you mean?

Sean
Like, you upload, you have a lead list, right? And emails, names, maybe a LinkedIn profile.

Andrew
yeah

Sean
Like, are you imagining that this side project takes that lead list, enriches it with like, this person is at this company, this company does this thing, this company has this much, okay, okay.

Andrew
Yeah.

Andrew
Apollo gives you all that. Apollo has all of that data already.

Sean
Got it, got it, got it.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
So it's just the different UI, I would say.

Andrew
Yeah, I just want a better UI for sorting through Apollo leads and then like maybe a way to like quickly write personalized intros to them. Like I see something. I just like, I add a little personalized intro to each one and then I just like move to the next one.

Sean
hmm yeah you swipe right so and then you can tab go to the tab where you swipe the people you swipe right on and then just start sitting yeah yeah that's really funny that's sick yeah yeah

Andrew
Yeah.

Andrew
It's fucking hilarious, but I think it would be like a way. I think it would be like a useful way to do like personalization, like true personalization, not a bullshit, but true personalization or maybe even, you know, give me an AI personalized option, but just let me proofread it really quickly and then like regenerate or write my own.

Sean
Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.

Andrew
And then like, you know, let me like give me like a. like a stack flow for building personalized intros so that I can like get better results from my my outbound.

Sean
Yeah.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

Sean
That's really funny. I love it. That's such a good idea.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
buts

Andrew
I want to call it, i I've been listening thing to this meta episode of Acquired.

Sean
Uh-huh.

Andrew
So I'm sure this name is exists out there, but I want to call it Lead Smash.

Sean
Uh-huh.

Sean
i had a but i was When I was online dating, i had I had a friend who would always be like, how's the how's the pipeline? yeah Any MQLs up there?

Andrew
Yep.

Andrew
I always felt like such an asshole for saying it, but it genuinely felt like, it felt like that because if you like, if you like stop talking to people, your pipeline dries up and like, uh, it felt gross, but it, there's a lot of truth.

Sean
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got it.

Andrew
in it Unfortunately, it's like how dating apps, like to be successful at dating apps, you kind of have to treat it like, uh, like a pipeline.

Sean
so

Sean
So the opposite of this, the opposite of this is a CRM for dating.

Andrew
Yeah. Oh no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, Sean, I'm out.

Sean
Plug in your Bumble, your Tinder, your Hinge.

Andrew
I'm so out.

Sean
It sends it, it plug in your messages. It tells you you haven't talked you havent set this girl a thirst bank.

Andrew
Oh my God. I hate it so much.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
I hate it so much, but yeah, that's, I think it would be a fun thing to try to build with like bolt dot.new or something like that.

Sean
It's getting better.

Sean
Yeah, 100%. 100%. I think you could do it too.

Andrew
Yeah. Cause like the basic, the most basic version, like don't even crawl the website and like give me, yeah, just upload the list and give me like what Apollo tells me and just let me like sort it into yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.

Sean
Just upload the list, right?

Andrew
and like maybe from what Apollo tells me, try to generate a personalized intro or something.

Sean
Yeah.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
Cute.

Andrew
Yeah, so I might I might try to build that one of these days is just like a ah fun little experiment to play around with bolt.new or something like it.

Sean
I like it. Do it.

Sean
I like I like it.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
There's so many other variants of this, like turning LinkedIn into a dating like. Yeah, turning like like like a very like a evil and real alternative universe is like this, but you turn LinkedIn and you turn it into a swipeable thing and you just swipe through profiles and connections.

Andrew
I mean, I guess if it's not for dating purposes, if it's just like, hey, does this person seem interesting or not?

Sean
Yeah, yeah, sure. I meant it. And like, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
The most evil form.

Sean
Link. In the most, yeah, instead of LinkedIn, you can call it linked up.

Andrew
Oh, God. Nope, nope, nope, I'm i'm out.

Sean
I like I like it. All right.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
Do it. It'll be fun. Yeah.

Andrew
Will do one last thing before we before we bounce. Have you seen the chat dot com thing?

Sean
100% I have. Fucking darmesh.

Andrew
Fucking Darmesh, so fucking like if I yeah, if I just go full tech bro for a second, like so fucking cool that he was just like like I assume he made a profit from it, but it also it also kind of seemed like he was just sort of doing it because he thought that

Sean
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Andrew
Like I couldn't tell if he was like, this is just a fun, funny way to make a quick profit. Or if he was, it felt almost like he was doing it. Cause he was just like, Oh, open AI should own this. Why don't they own it yet? I'm just going to buy it and then tell Sam to buy it from me.

Sean
i think both yeah i think well i think my understanding of it when he bought he bought it as like yeah no shit this is going to be an important domain so i want to capture the value and then yeah yeah yeah like once chatgbt became like a real thing he was like this is this is mine now and someone else can pay me a lot of money for it yeah

Andrew
But he bought it like like recently, right? Like a month or two ago.

Andrew
Interesting, but he didn't like he could have like really, I don't know. i He didn't, he didn't publish the price, although he did that hilarious thing where he was like, here's like, if you plug this data into this prompt into chat GPT, it'll do a reasonably good job at guessing the price.

Sean
True, he could have

Sean
I see. I see.

Andrew
Did you see that?

Sean
No, I just thought it was 15 million. How much was it?

Andrew
No, I don't think he actually said the price. So I think what he did, was he, he gave everyone a prompt and said, if you plug this into chat GPT, it'll like, Oh one, it'll do a reasonable job at guessing, like giving you a range of potential prices and a range of how much of that was in open AI stock.

Sean
I see.

Sean
Wow.

Sean
okay Okay.

Sean
What was the prompt? Do you have it?

Andrew
it's in the

Sean
I'm pulling up his Twitter.

Andrew
Yeah, it's in the in his original tweet. So if you go to Darmesh, let's see.

Sean
Oh, there we go, prompt ends here.

Andrew
Did you find it?

Sean
All right, there we go.

Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. So you're a smart, curious person on the internet. You've been given the following facts. Darmesh buys chat.com for 15.5 million.

Sean
Yep.

Andrew
He bought it for a project. He doesn't usually sell domains. He does sell a domain.

Sean
Yep.

Andrew
It's almost never at a loss. OpenAI was the perfect home for this domain. So he decided to sell it. He's known Sam for over a decade since before openAI. Darmesh doesn't like profiting off of people he considers friends and also doesn't like referring to himself in the third person.

Andrew
He has repeatedly declared his love for open AI, the platform, the developer experience, and the company. He's always wanted to own open AI shares. He made a non humble brag earlier this year that he's now an investor in open AI.

Andrew
He doesn't need the cash from a domain sale. He's doing okay. Biggest understatement of the year.

Sean
Yes.

Andrew
How much do you think he sold the chat.com domain for? What percent of that was in shares of open AI provide an approximate range in share reasoning?

Sean
All right. Do you want the answer?

Andrew
Yeah, what'd you get?

Sean
Actually, hold on. Let me put it into 01 preview. One second. All right. let me do the Let me do it again.

Sean
All right, it's thinking. Gathering information. It's evaluating domain and sale. Evaluating the terms. Assessing value. Investigating exchange points.

Sean
Mapping sale details. Okay. All right.

Sean
Interesting. 01 preview says that he sold it in the range of 15 to 60 million.

Andrew
Mm hmm.

Sean
And that

Sean
80 to 100% of it is actually in open AI shares.

Andrew
By the way, you could have just clicked on the tweet and looked at the replies because someone already did this and like got the exact same answer.

Sean
Okay. Bye, Andrew. Wait, wait, wait, wait, but, but, but, but, uh, Chad, Chad GPT four, four, oh, thought the sale price, the total reasonable sale price was 20 to 25 million.

Sean
And then once 50 to 70% open eyes, AI shares had a cash component, but I guess I kind of believe the 01 preview.

Andrew
I think based on the clues he gave you in the prompt, it seems like most likely like he just sold it for what he bought it for.

Sean
Yeah. What a smart way to be common.

Andrew
He, he wouldn't take a loss. He just sold it for what he bought it for.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
And my guess is he did a hundred percent open AI shares. Cause like, what the fuck does he care about? like a million dollars or something like that.

Sean
100%.

Andrew
Like he doesn't need a million dollars.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
He, he wants open AI shares.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
Damn.

Andrew
Yeah, very smart way to become an open AI investor.

Sean
I know.

Sean
What an excellent way to, like, be a rich person.

Andrew
Also he had to be kind of, yeah, yeah must be nice to be rich.

Sean
Uh huh.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
He does seem to be doing it better than most. But yeah, I wonder around about the timing of all of this. It's like, open AI hasn't had shares for that long, right?

Andrew
Like they only did the conversion to become a for-profit entity within the last like six months, right?

Sean
Wait, what do you what is the you mean like they're not that diluted? Is that what you're trying to say?

Andrew
No, I'm saying like like a year ago, he couldn't have invested in OpenAI.

Sean
Right.

Andrew
Or maybe, I don't know, I guess it depends. like I guess OpenAI has raised a bunch of money before and they've had the like kind of weird split.

Sean
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
So yeah, that would be interesting to know. Because like they've they've been making the transition to become a for-profit entity.

Sean
Mm hmm.

Andrew
And so I'm curious if he has shared like which of the weird like entities he has shares in.

Sean
Right.

Andrew
Yeah. Very interesting.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of sweet, kind of cool.

Andrew
Also, fucking great domain, and I hope they drop the GPT and just become chat.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy.

Andrew
That'd be be cool as shit.

Sean
It's kind of insane. I don't really like chat dot.com, by the way.

Andrew
Really?

Sean
Yeah, I think it's too, well, I think chat is too short.

Andrew
What?

Sean
I think chat is too short. and It's too like,

Andrew
I don't think there's any such thing as too short.

Sean
OK, Mr. 511 and a half. like it's not that ownable of a name. Like Gen Z kind of uses chat as a as a difference for guys, which is kind of cool. Like, you know, like like Twitch streamers, they go like, hey, Chad, and instead of hey, guys, people have kind of deemed it as the the fourth person. But I don't know. I don't think it's that good. It's kind of like pets dot.com to me.

Andrew
Interesting. I think it's cool. I feel like, like I saw a bunch of memes, you know, drop the, the, drop the GPT.

Sean
Yeah.

Sean
Right.

Andrew
I feel like if just owning a four letter domain in this day and age is like a massive flex and it's like kind of cool to just be like, yeah, everyone else is building chat bots.

Sean
Yeah.

Sean
You know what I think is cool?

Andrew
We're, we're the chat, we're the chat, the place you go for a chat interface.

Sean
Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing to...

Andrew
But also, i guess I guess at this point, like no one calls it chat GPT anymore. They call it 4.0 or 0.1.

Sean
Oh, I see.

Sean
I refer to it by its government name, OpenAI.

Andrew
I mean, I guess people still use chat GPT, but they also have started using the model differentiators a lot.

Sean
Interesting. I feel like, I mean, I like Claude more. Just, yeah.

Andrew
Oh, Claude's a great name. But yeah, I mean, OpenAI is terrible at naming.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Most of these people are.

Sean
Sure.

Andrew
It's bugging me that they're all doing the three and a half haiku, three and a half sonnet, three and a half opus.

Sean
No, I- I- no, I- That's true. That's true. I did love for- I think for I was a great name. Oh no, 01 is a great name because of the of the meme that like most of 01 was probably built by people on 01B says.

Andrew
Oh, that's great. That's fucking awesome. I missed that.

Sean
Which is, I mean, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think that's kind of sick if it's like, yeah.

Andrew
No, it's so cool.

Sean
I- Okay, here's my problem with it. Like, if it's chat, it's not, like, what what if what if it's not chat?

Sean
What if the interface to talk to AI is not chat?

Andrew
i think i think that's the bigger yeah I think that's the bigger problem.

Sean
What if it's eighty his agent.com?

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
to is like yeah it's Is voice chat not really?

Sean
Just buyvoice.com.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean
Just use sam.com. Just to solve them. Yeah.

Andrew
That would be hilarious if Sam just became, just became the AI.

Sean
Did I tell you that I finally joined my mom, chat GPT?

Andrew
Oh no. What'd you think?

Sean
Uh, it was really cute. she's never like used it before. And, you know, she's not like very much, she's not like a very strong English speaker. Like she she gets by and can like get through life, but, uh, but open AI's voice thing also does really great Chinese, like incredibly great Chinese, uh, conversationally.

Andrew
Cool.

Sean
And yeah, she started talking to it. And then she like, like I've never seen this woman giggle that much. It was very sweet. know Yeah.

Andrew
Oh, that's so wholesome.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah. It was very wholesome.

Andrew
Yeah.

56:13.100
Andrew
Those are the moments that make me feel like kind of the most optimistic. It's like if if we can have.

Sean
Yeah, then she started naming it and like, was like, yeah, it was like she started giving it a name and like referring to it by a name and like treating it like as a human being. And then, and then it got weird.

Andrew
And then and then she started using it to generate a bunch of content for her new blog and like try to convince people that, that, you know, Hitler was actually okay.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
Not that bad. And then it just, it devolved really quickly. It was super weird.

Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know you knew my mom like that, but cool.

Andrew
Obviously joking, but yeah, I was saying like, I feel like those kinds of moments are the wholesome moments that like, if AI becomes that it's like the most positive version of itself.

Sean
Uh-huh, uh-huh. So what were you saying?

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
If it becomes like. what I joked about after that, you know misinformation bots, then it's like the most dystopian version.

Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

Sean
Yeah, can't believe it was a fucking Z-Pain.

Andrew
All right, man. Well, good chatting with you.

Sean
I can't believe you guys don't understand.

Andrew
Sorry for getting your hopes up.

Sean
For 30 minutes I was guessing and I thought it was, I thought it was good news.

Andrew
You thought it was actual news.

Sean
Just, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew
I was giggling so hard when you started guessing actual important life events.

Sean
Yeah.

Andrew
And I realized that I was just going to let you down so hard.

Andrew
All right, man.

Sean
I'll see you later. Bye.

Andrew
Catch you later. Bye.