Double header: Expert beginners

Season 2: Episode 2

It's a Small Efforts Double Header! We were late getting this episode out, so we decided to go ahead and publish two weeks of episodes at once. In this episode Andrew talks about quietly pushing ChartJuice live, and raves about his new favorite podcast. Meanwhile Sean drops some knowledge about the intricacies of swag supply chains, and the guys discuss the trap of being an expert beginner vs a true expert. Finally, Sean talk about a leadership retreat he's going on soon.

Links:
For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:00.00
Sean Sun
Yeah, hey doing sorry late.

Andrew
All good man I've just been over here sipping on my in Zony Happy as can be.

Sean Sun
Ah, there you good there Good How's your week been. What's you been up to.

Andrew
Um, not a bad week. Um, let's see I haven't been hella productive this week but I've been making steady progress. So um.

Andrew
Think this happened after last week's pod. Um, so I sent out chart juice for feedback to a small group of friends you um, awesome price Greg um, handful of people and.

Andrew
My friends are super generous and so a bunch of people took the time to create an account and give me some feedback and a lot of feedback I got was like hey this is cool. Um, you know Austin understandably spent a bunch time on the ux and was like hey you know you should left a line. Your text anytime you have more than a line or two because it becomes harder to read when it's center aligned and I was like dope didn't know that that's a really helpful rule of thumb. Thanks for telling me um and then like Greg um in very Greg fashion pointed out. Hey on the signup form you should really have a couple of statements about the value props and like what people are going to get out of this to help encourage them to finish the signup process which is very Greg always thinking from the perspective of the user and thinking about like how do we optimize this. Um, so that was super helpful. My friend Kevin who is one of the original partners in crit and a super talented engineer took a very engineer's approach to it and he was like hey just so you know if you put in a ah. Width of greater than a hundred thousand pixels it breaks and I was like cool I don't care and like he obviously knew I wouldn't care but you know took took a very engineer approach to it and.

Sean Sun
Yeah, yeah.

Sean Sun
Um, yeah.

Andrew
Ah, like looked for the edge cases the weird extreme edge cases. The other one was like if you add more than 21 elements to a pie chart then the legend gets really wonky like create. Um, so.

Sean Sun
I think that's a hold on I just want to point out I don't think I think that's a feature not a bug I think no one should be adding 21 elements to a pie chart like a pizza doesn't have 21 slices yeah um

Andrew
Yeah.

Andrew
I Love it? Yeah yeah, yeah, we we intentionally make your chart look like shit past a certain point because like why stop.

Sean Sun
Right? right? Exactly There's a hidden feature that if you make it look like it'll all turn brown and.

Andrew
I mean the good thing to do would be if you use more than 8 elements or something in your pie chart. We just automatically start combining the smallest ones that would be nifty but um, but my favorite piece of advice came from my friend ramy um, who is an indie hacker.

Sean Sun
Um.

Andrew
Um, based out of the Uk and repeat founder has a few successful small products under his belt and his advice was basically good enough ship it and I was like that's you're so fucking right? so.

Sean Sun
Nice.

Andrew
Um, yeah, the first half of this week was shipping it so chart juice is now technically live I'm calling it a soft launch because I haven't really talked about it being live much at all yet I'm not being super public about it. Um I just linked up.

Sean Sun
Um, okay, um.

Andrew
The buttons on the marketing website to the actual app so that you can get to the app from the marketing website and then I made some small updates yesterday to the marketing website adding screenshots and a little bit more information about how it how it works. To try to make it a little bit clear what the product does because I had several people like hit the marketing website and go so is this like chart Js for emails and I was like I mean kind of but it's like a layer above that. Um, so I added some some screenshots and like a little bit more information without. While trying not to change too much because I still want to test kind of that original marketing copy and see how well it works. Um, but yeah, so chart juice is now live I am spending the rest of this week focused on trying to get billing working. Um, so i.

Sean Sun
Um, right.

Andrew
If you go sign up for an account right now it is free until I get billing implemented um and once I get billing implemented I'll I'll find some way to grandfather in any existing accounts with like an extra long free trial Probably um.

Sean Sun
Right? right? So Andrew's giving away lifetime access to anyone who signs up right now.

Andrew
Andrew's giving away short to your mas if your life only you know continues for another three or four weeks then yeah lifetime access.

Sean Sun
If you plan on dying soon. Sign up for George ah, that's the ad there you go is converting ad.

Andrew
Ah, perfect ship it so working on getting billing um, integrated which I've just been dragging my feet a little bit. It's just boring. It's like it's standard. Ah. Stuff I Just got to hook up some webhooks and Yada Yada Um, and then the other thing I need to do that's kind of important is I need to actually test using our embed code in a transactional email which is like somewhat. Hard to do since I don't have an existing Saas product with existing data. Um, So yeah, I'll just I'll probably just fudge the data. But um I need to send out some test emails. Um, and then I want to record a demo video of like the entire end-to-end process.

Sean Sun
Right? right.

Andrew
Um, so I've got ah a demo with a friend tomorrow who had expressed some interest a few months ago and so I think I'll probably challenge myself to like set things up beforehand so that I can give him a really thorough end in demo of like.

Andrew
Come in I design a chart I pick a couple of his brand colors to include in the chart and then I actually send an email to him with the chart embedded in the email. So I think I'm going to do that. But um I was having trouble focusing today because.

Sean Sun
Ah, yeah to be sweet.

Andrew
Both of those things are kind of boring to do and my mind was buzzing with marketing ideas and so I I spent my whole morning just like writing down marketing ideas instead of doing the work I need to do but.

Sean Sun
Nice, nice. Nice. It's okay, where where idea Junkies I get it? yeah.

Andrew
Um, yeah man I had a friend tell me the other day that like part of the reason they didn't want to start a business is because they didn't have any ideas for things that they wanted to exist that badly and I was like we're very different people I can't stop. Stupid ideas from coming. Maybe they have better tastes and are like yeah none of these things need to exist whereas I'm like all of my bad ideas need to exist.

Sean Sun
Um, yeah, ah.

Sean Sun
Yeah, you you wrote this on. Ah you wrote this on our sheet um is that is that related to what you you wrote down friends who have no ideas you put it. Ah.

Andrew
I Can't remember where I wrote it down anymore. Oh yeah I I kind of jotted it down there knowing I would bring it up with something else. Probably yeah.

Sean Sun
Okay, gotcha gotcha dude I I feel that um oh oh so really quickly. Those of you who are listening for the first time which is I don't know I guess at least 1 person last week um yeah thanks for the shout out Rob we're not going to say his full name sweet. Don't.

Andrew
Oh right.

Andrew
Yeah, thanks for this shout out. Mr Walling

Sean Sun
He doesn't have to like get yeah I think I don't think podskin will pick up the context right? God did.

Andrew
Rob walling we're mentioning you again if you are getting a notification through Pops Pod Scan thanks for listening you? rock.

Sean Sun
Yeah, thanks for the? um, um so last episode we talked to we we talked about Mr Walling and um, he ended up hitting me up or on Twitter saying that he listened to it I was like that's weird. We have 11 listeners. Why do we have 12 Um.

Andrew
Also super kind. Just so nice of him to to listen and then take the time to reach out and say something.

Sean Sun
Yeah. Yeah, incredibly yeah, 100%. Um, yeah, it was a super sweet message at it. You know it it sort of talked about um it talked about microconf. What it also kind of gave me. He actually also shout out to bureau digital but he you know also brought that up Anyway. Um. Um, but you brought up the fact that there was this tool called Pod Scan and then um, ah.

Andrew
Yeah, for context Sean was talking last episode about um, wanting to make more founder friends and we were talking about whether microcompf was a good fit I mentioned pure of digital which is a really great community for agency founders that I was a part of when I was running crit. Um, and Rob. When he reached out to Sean was basically like hey if you kind of what I had heard him say publicly if you think you should be here then you should be here. There are plenty of agency owners who are starting things on the side I think you would find your people also bureau of digital is great. So um. Rob was just being a great person although we were hypothesizing that maybe he was using pod scan to to find out about this.

Sean Sun
Right? right? which makes me think I wonder who else is using pods can because we're just gonna list all their names every single podcast. Yeah yeah, exactly Yeah, but more importantly, um, he had a good point.

Andrew
Just start shouting out names of famous people. Internet Famous Bootstraper famous.

Sean Sun
Because he actually listened to it which those so super cool is the fact that our voices sound too similar and anyone who listening for the for to this for the first time has no idea who's who so I'm Sean this is Sean's voice

Andrew
Oh right.

Andrew
And I'm Andrew I am the founder of formerly the founder of crit an agency that I grew and ran for 8 years with some of my best friends now the founder of chart juice a saas product that makes it super easy to to design great looking charts and use them anywhere. And Sean is the founder of.

Sean Sun
Of Miscarreants which is also an agency So when we talk about agency things. That's that also adds an extra layer of confusion. A current live agency that I'm still running with people who I now consider as some of my closest friends. Great time keeps me busy.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean Sun
All that stuff occasionally may or may not try to work on other things which is what this podcast is for okay, no, ah.

Andrew
Um, so tell us um, tell us what's going on in agency land and in your world this week

Sean Sun
So ah, ah, we're a little bit of a skelting for this week which is tough. Um, yeah, it just became a whirlwind of things. My internet also just straight up went out. Um.

Andrew
Always tough. Yeah.

Andrew
Love that snaps for comcast. Oh okay, all right? so that there are others that are shitty too. Yeah, they are.

Sean Sun
Earlier in the week and it was just shaky and that was brutal too. Yeah yeah, files on my side. But yeah yeah yeah I think they're all garbage to be honest, yeah we should c certain isp. Okay.

Andrew
Ah, don't get me started man.

Sean Sun
Um, that would be cool that would be super cool. We're not going to do that. Um I was I say grain oy or started isp. Why yeah just be the internet. Um, okay anyway.

Andrew
Ah, Andrew Morris and I have been talking about doing that for fucking years. But.

Sean Sun
I've been ah some some folks that's been on Pto um with some folks at the same time just like graduated to some really really awesome other jobs and it's Cool. You know they've been with been with us for a long time. Very,. It's a very bittersweet thing that they're they've gone to to other places and and are now making way more money than you know. Little agency? Um, but we've also been really slow to hire because we're trying to be very intentional about how we hire and and trying to you know not I found myself having a bad habit of just hiring off a vibe. Um and just like not even not even that these are like. People that I've hired and then they've become bad.. It's just that. Um, we don't even set the right expectations or the roles of Responsibilities. We'll put them in the wrong level because I just again I'll just hire off a vibe. Um, so we're hiring slow people are in pto someone got really sick. Unfortunately.

Andrew
Oof and the thing about agencies is when people get sick the work still kind of has to get done unless you have really understanding clients with like very chill deadlines which sometimes you do but most of the time those clients have their own deadlines. They're.

Sean Sun
Um, and ah.

Sean Sun
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and.

Sean Sun
For sure I Do think that the clients we do end up getting on like retainer really has built a level of rapport with us and I think just the way we've done our contracts and whatnot. It's okay, it's you know it's and and frankly like.

Andrew
Dealing with.

Sean Sun
It's so rare that we don't almost like have snap deliveries of things when they're easy things that when something stalls for and a little bit. It's so much of an anomaly and that the cleanse like okay, whatever like just don't make it. Yeah, don't make it a pattern which is fine. Um, so.

Andrew
That's a nice place to be in.

Sean Sun
That's cool, but speaking of fires I was late to this thing. Um because I've now learned more about challenge coins than I've ever thought I would learn um, not going to talk it.

Andrew
I Knew almost nothing about challenge coins until I started working with the cyber security industry. Um, which I guess makes sense Cyber securityity industry and military have a lot of overlap and challenge coins are like a big part of military culture. Um, but yeah tell what? what have you been learning.

Sean Sun
Yeah, me too me too.

Sean Sun
Um, this is probably good for like a blog post at some point of like so you won't like a so you want to order a challenge coin thing for ah maybe this will be a good miscreants blog post series of like so you want to order and then different types of merchandise.

Andrew
It's a good idea. Yeah.

Sean Sun
May be cool for our clients too. Um, just you know different ranges in size where like which ones are making them stateside which ones are making them somewhere in a factory not in the Us and they're shipping them. Um and then also how there's like new challenge coin technology now for like a texturd coin where they print.

Andrew
Ah, would not have thought of that.

Sean Sun
Yeah, they they now like will like so so traditionally challenge coins you either like like created a mold casted them had those sort of things die shruck effectively or you have um you have like blank coins that you buy and people just slap a sticker on them. Um.

Andrew
Um, yeah.

Sean Sun
Which is like the really shitty cheap ones that you people don't really want. But now there's another thing where you have like a blank coin but you print full color around it in this like Metallic Esque ink and then it looks raised you keep printing layers and layers on top and they coat it with ceramic like the same sort of ceramic for like firearms. Apparently.

Andrew
He.

Sean Sun
The Texturd coin or something like that Anyway, um, basically we had a deadline to get some challenge coins across the finish line. Um and was super super tight and that might be our saving grace and that was what I was doing leading up to this call Now you know.

Andrew
Quote.

Andrew
Might be your saving Grace hell oh because of these new textured printed. Ah cool.

Sean Sun
Ah, just that they can get yet. It's done way faster because there's no yeah, yeah, there are no there. There is no challenge coin provider right now that can do it faster than three weeks and we eat it like next week

Andrew
Yeah, oof.

Sean Sun
Um, unless unless you're doing it so you have to do it stateside and you have to use The only blanks that they have which they all have an like antique metal type of coin that they start with or the antique metal sort of thing the way they get it shi that the polish it takes more time anyway. Um, so if you want like an actual like.

Andrew
But.

Sean Sun
Fully custom with color all the fancier stuff you have to wait 3 to four weeks so if you're listening to this and you plan on doing this for black hat. You should get ahead of it like now. Um, yeah.

Andrew
Interesting. Yeah I you know how? um so I had this this client once this was kind of funny. They treated us I guess a little bit more like a traditional employee interview or something. Um, when we were talking to them in our initial conversations.

Sean Sun
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew
Think they were mostly used to working with with smaller contractors and stuff. Um and they asked us this question that was like what's something you can just nerd out about for an insane amount of time and it doesn't have to be related to the work we're doing just yeah, they were.

Sean Sun
Ah.

Andrew
Liked seeing people get passionate about a thing and liked seeing that people had the drive to go deep on a a subject um not 100% sure it's the most relevant question in in a true hr setting but like it was interesting and I enjoyed answering it. Um I feel like.

Sean Sun
Um, and.

Sean Sun
Um.

Sean Sun
Right.

Andrew
1 of those things that you have developed a weird amount of knowledge about over the years that you probably don't think about day-to-day as being useful is just the like materials behind merchandise and how those materials like the like.

Sean Sun
You're right. Yeah.

Andrew
Swag supply chain. Um, you know I know Jack shit about the swag supply chain other than I can go to like um, what's the ink octopus Octopus Inc Custom ink thank you

Sean Sun
Oh custom ink. Yeah Otousync is better. We should start a competitor an isv that prints t-shirt. Okay sorry well.

Andrew
Ah, so I can go to like custom ink or sticker mule and if it's not doable through one of those 2 platforms I know Jack shit about it. Um, but I feel like you actually have a kind of absurd amount of knowledge about just like niche. So. Wag supply chain things like challenge coins or like like the best possible fucking t-shirt. And yeah, yeah, it's it.

Sean Sun
Um.

Sean Sun
Yeah, thanks. So okay, that's super interesting I didn't write this down earlier but now I want to talk about it. Have you heard of the term expert beginner. Okay, um I First of all I appreciate it. Thank you? um.

Andrew
Ah, no.

Sean Sun
For for thinking that I'm a swag expert. Um I do think I know more than the average bear on like like t-shirt printing and I think you know because I got really interested in like doing a street where brand really early on I learned a lot about that sort of stuff but there's this term that I learned there's a blog post and we'll ah we'll link to it.

Andrew
We probably won't link to it because we're really lazy with show notes but continue.

Sean Sun
This idea of an expert beginner and that's that's that's right, we're not going to link to it. You're gonna have to look it up yourself. But um, you should and or or I'll just tell you but basically the best example and this is Fred up from the blog post is um, ah the the author talks about how they went and. To go learn how to bowl right? and when you bowl you stick you know each finger in each hole. Um, so so that's 3 fingers per whole and sorry that's 3 fingers. Um, we don't have an editor. We don't have an editor. Okay.

Andrew
Ah.

Sean Sun
You stick a finger per hole use 3 fingers you bowl you bowl down the middle you wanted to kind of like ah have enough curve and and you want to have perfect form so it curves and you get a strike and getting a strike isn't hitting directly onto um, onto like the middle of that triangle you have where you want to hit it on the side of the first pin. That's all I know that's all I remember from also my university bowling class. Um, but there's a way to cheese it and the way you cheese it is that you only use 2 fingers only your like not so not your thumb and you roll it down the side and it creates a lot of spin and um, you get to basically hit. Ah, you get you get to basically spin the ball so that it it hits the the side of that pin and more often. Not you get a strike or a lot of pins down which is which is great. Um and makes you look like you're a really, you're you're a pro, a bowling. Um when and actually and actuality you.

Andrew
M.

Sean Sun
Are just an expert beginner because um, so the author kind of talks about how like they would use this thing they would actually get they would they would get the they would get you know like like about a 160 average which is really good for any sort of amateur bowler but it's not a perfect I think it's 300 in bowling. Okay.

Andrew
Yeah I think it's right.

Sean Sun
It's not a 300 and he can never cross that 100 60 thing and it was because he was using the wrong form. He wasn't using the thing that you know the foundational knowledge of bowling and and really learning all those things having the right form to go and bowl and that was the thing that stopping him get to get it from getting the 300 and there's a lot of this stuff that kind of goes with. We talked about like the dunning kruger thing like many many episodes back I I don't even know if it was ever published with this idea I think it's called dunning kruger right? This idea that like you're really confident when you're a beginner and then there's this giant trough of disillusionment where you're um, um. You're just straight up like god I like like I don't know anything and all that sort of stuff and it's kind of related to that. But the whole point is that like um, you're supposed to have this path where you start from beginner you go to intermediate levels of knowledge you go to advance, you go to expert except you can do things that bring you to like expert beginner which are like.

Andrew
Yeah.

Sean Sun
Quick little shortcuts to learn. Um that take you to it and the blog post was more about Ai and how like we'll have. We'll have a lot of software engineers that become expert beginners because of Ai and generate more of these and that's the thing that will kill their jobs and all the sort of stuff but I like.

Andrew
Ah.

Sean Sun
It's been something.. That's just been brewing in my mind of what what in my life am I like truly an expert at or am I expert beginner at because I am positive that there are plenty of things that I feel the confidence of an expert where I'm merely an expert beginner and I think it's important to start a business and to like. Have that level of expertise. But um I Definitely um, absolutely yeah.

Andrew
See I think I think founders by necessity are expert beginners because generalists you have to be a generalist. You need to be able to do a lot of different things to be a founder. But if you take the time to become a true expert in really. Just about any of those things then you were wasting time you were burning time that you are not going to get a return on and you have to be kind of ruthless about just like getting things to good enough and moving on and so I think you know I think a lot about.

Sean Sun
Um, yeah.

Sean Sun
You know.

Andrew
You know, ah like design I think I'm probably I don't know expert beginner might even be too nice. But I think I'm like something similar to that when it comes to design because I can make something look pretty damn good. Pretty quickly. But if you start asking me for anything specific. It all crumbles very quickly because all I actually know how to do is take components and put them together like I know how to find templates and I think I have relatively good taste and so I can find templates find existing tools and put them together in new ways.

Sean Sun
Um.

Sean Sun
Um, yeah.

Andrew
And I can crank stuff out that looks pretty good, pretty fast. But if you want me to do something very specific I can't and honestly I shouldn't be able to because at the point that I take the time to actually learn how to use the fucking Pin Tool I've probably wasted time that I should have been doing something else. Um.

Sean Sun
Ah, so I think that's also like an interesting like alternative way to think about it is like like how quickly can you speed run getting to expert beginner level so you can because to me, you're right, An Expert beginner is just like this idea of like knowing enough to be Dangerous. Um. And like truly dangerous right? knowing enough to probably sell a service on the thing but then knowing enough that like you know if someone's better than you and the important thing is it's okay to get to an expert beginner level. It's not okay to assume that's the that's the cap of oh yeah.

Andrew
Um.

Andrew
Yeah, like I I guess the the gist of what you were getting at before is like it's fine to become an expert beginner but just like don't confuse that with being an expert. Be aware that you are just an expert beginner and that to really get good at. 1 specific thing. You might have to start over from first principles. A little bit. Yeah I think that's one of the reasons I struggled in a product role as an employee was because I you know.

Sean Sun
Yeah, absolutely So they.

Andrew
Kind of thought I was better at product than I was and I quickly realized I was essentially an expert beginner like I could do the things. But then when you started needing very specific things from me. It started to break down a little bit and I was like oh shit, there's so much here that I don't know.

Sean Sun
Right.

Sean Sun
Yeah, yeah, that is a good point that like founders have a necessity of needing to get ah to get to that. Um, yeah, yeah, fair enough? Yeah um, ah at the very least I will link it to you.

Andrew
Um, yeah, cool post.

Sean Sun
And whether or not it makes it makes it to our show notes fair enough. That's not going to happen as not is not going to happen I got to deal with this challenge coin thing afterwards. So um, cool, very cool. Um, what is the Universe no seggue but go ahead.

Andrew
If you can get it to me before I upload the episode then I'll include it. Okay.

Andrew
O okay, um, the universe is all around us Sean um, the universe is the new is my new like podcast obsession.

Sean Sun
Um, okay next I don't want to hear about it or it's too late. Why um, cool.

Andrew
I actually have like 5 But um, the universe is my new non-business podcast obsession. Um, so Hank Green ah nope sorry John Green his brother just came out with a new podcast with Dr Katie Mack

Andrew
An astrophysicist I think um, ah astrologist astrophysicist wait astronomist astrology is the I always fucked those up astrology is you know Virgos and capricorns. Ah astronomy is studying space. So I don't know if she's an astronomer or an astrophysicist doesn't matter. Um, but they just came out with this new podcast about the history of the universe and what we know and understand about the universe and how it works and how it began all under crash course. Um, the. Ah, educational nonprofit that Hank Green and John Green run together. They publish Youtube videos for free to help people learn about complex topics and to provide educational resources for teachers. super super cool initiative um so the universe is this new podcast that they've released and I'm just fucking obsessed the universe is so much weirder than I knew or understood like obviously anytime you start to think about the universe. It gets really fucking. Weird. Um. But it's it's so much weirder. So I'm going to butcher all of this. So like anyone listening should go and listen to the actual podcast and not my poorly repeated version. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so my expert begintake is um, we.

Sean Sun
Yeah, yeah, give us your expert beginner take on.

Andrew
Know with reasonable certainty what happened dating back to within 1 pecoosecond of the beginning of the universe which is fucking wild like beyond that peecoosecond we get. We don't really know and understand.

Sean Sun
How is that possible.

Andrew
But up to that point of like 1 peqosecond which is like 1 10 n thousandth or one. Yeah, very very very small fraction of a second. We have a very good understanding and the reason and this is like a central part I think of how. Modern astrophysics and like astronomy works that none of us really think about day-to-day is when we look out into space and we look at light and observe light. We're also looking back in time because we're dealing with such large distances. Distance and time become correlated because light travels at a specific speed. Most people are familiar with the concept of a light year which is a a um measure of distance but is. Also the distance that light can travel in a year and so when we look way way way out into the universe. We are looking back in time. So that's one of the ways that we are able to understand what's happening like way back is we just look really far out. Um. But then it gets like even more complicated because as we're looking farther out like the universe is expanding all the time and so as we're looking farther out sometimes things are like in a different place than they appear because they have moved since the light left them.

Andrew
So that's weird. That's just a really weird concept. Um, and then there's also if you look far enough out. You can see what is essentially like this kind of wall of like hot dense Plasma um and like that is like.

Sean Sun
Yeah.

Andrew
Kind of the edge of our observable universe. That's the edge of how far back in time we can look. It's like seeing this like hot dense plasma and so one of the first things that Dr Katie Max stressed is. When people talk about the big bang and they talk about this idea of a singularity that everything was in an infinitely small infinitely dense place. We don't actually know that for a fact because that came before that peqco second so we don't know what came before the peeqco second but we can. Look to the edge of our observable universe and understand that in the very earliest amount of time we can things were very hot and very dense but also maybe still infinitely large like hot and dense like infinitely hot infinitely dense. But very also infinitely large because infinities have different sizes so like something could have been infinitely large and still smaller than the infinitely large universe we have today which is weird and then we have been able to prove somehow. Um, that like in that earliest hot dense state physics were just completely different like there was there were different laws of physics that governed how the world worked which is just really really hurts your brain to think about. Um.

Andrew
And part of how we have learned all of this too when you think about Particle accelerators. Um, what is a particle accelerator and and why does it exist. Why? What are we using it for okay.

Sean Sun
I I don't know I don't know but I mean I Yeah yeah, well this yeah I mean Bi is the so minus the acceleration of the particle or is this how related is this I almost failed high school.

Andrew
You have a guess at like what a particle accelerator is right like the cern thing.

Andrew
Very related.

Sean Sun
High school physics but like to like there's like the thing where they try to collide 2 things the other okay, these things are okay I don't know why we make them go faster but you know.

Andrew
Yep, yeah so particle so particle accelerators are these crazy machines. The biggest one I believe is under Cern in Switzerland which is a scientific like observation center. Um, and particle accelerators basically take 2 um tiny particles. Um I'm not sure if it's protons or atoms like which size it is but tiny particles spin them around really really really fast and then slam them into each other. Um, and. I always assumed that we were doing this to break them apart and see like what the smallest thing was and I I guess maybe that's part of it. But the real reason we're slamming these things together is actually because that's the best way to recreate the early state of the universe. Where actually a particle accelerator is essentially an oven It's just using speed to slam things together fast enough to create enough heat enough energy to recreate that hot dense plasma that existed in those earliest.

Sean Sun
So.

Andrew
Fractions of a second of the universe that we can see at the edge of our observable universe. So we've been able to see it. We've been able to like mathematically prove that it's there and that it worked in a really weird way and then we've been able to recreate that with particle accelerators.

Sean Sun
What is cool. What is the what is the implication of like of those things.

Andrew
Um, the implication is I don't know the universe is really fucking weird and like and by understanding how things worked we might be able to understand like what is coming in the future.

Sean Sun
I see.

Andrew
And understand like how to alter the laws of physics. Maybe I Yeah I Still don't really understand it. It's confusing as fuck.

Sean Sun
Okay I I like just learned what quantum entanglement kind of sort of is like two days ago I just understood it from like a ticktok of the 3 body problem. Yeah, um.

Andrew
Ah, love it I need to finish the show I'm I'm like halfway through. Yeah.

Sean Sun
Yeah, yeah, I still haven't I haven't even watched it. That's the one clip I don't even know it was the right 3 body problem. Do you know that the producer 3 body problem like got murdered by the way. Actually it was 3 people who got murdered was yeah.

Andrew
Holy shit. That's very 3 body problem of him them. Holy shit wild. Yeah.

Sean Sun
And it became a 3 body problem. Um le at link in the show notes not really, but you know it's a thing look it up. Yeah, ah yeah, cool.

Andrew
Yeah, anyway, the universe is like I heard then advertising it because I listened to a lot of Hank and John Green content and I was like all right that sounds kind of interesting. Maybe I'll check it out and then they dropped an episode in their usual podcast feed. And so I listened to it and I was like holy shit. This is so cool and so weird and I just needed to tell you about it because it's it's it's just the universe. It's just physics. But it's so freaking weird and it's like. Been on my mind constantly ever since. So um, recommendation if anyone likes space stuff. Go listen to the universe from crash course. Um, it's it's been really really Really fun really enjoyable yeah yeah um

Sean Sun
So nice. Nice I was good I was solid. Thank you? yeah.

Andrew
Tell me about this E Q leadership thing in the dolomites sick.

Sean Sun
Oh yeah, yeah in the dolomites I'm going to the doloitees I go into the nollluites but but hold on just because you spent so much time talking about ah the thing just so that Okay, sorry.

Andrew
Ah, she genuinely quoted that song in the episode. She's like yeah no that that part of the song is very accurate. Our whole universe is in a hot dense space. Yeah, exactly.

Sean Sun
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, when you said hot dense I started thinking? Yeah, yeah, yeah I will say it hurts my brain to think about? Um, ah yeah.

Andrew
Um, it hurts so much.

Sean Sun
Yeah I was just like they oh so it like I mean I also like did terribly in high school physics. But the the thought like the concept of things like light years and all that sort of stuff I don't know I mean I get like when Jeff Bezos said I like I realize I'll never become a world renowned physicist. So i. Stop doing physics I felt that internally but like like a very small miniusscule level of he all that stuff. Um, what are the dolomites. um um I am going to the dolomites. It is this leadership course a friend of mine took it and an old boss took it.

Andrew
Cool.

Sean Sun
Back when I was in college and she had a good time. It's like ah you kind of just like it's called pause connect. Ah none of you None of you better take it I don't want to see anyone there by the way just for the record. But apparently it's like I don't know. Ah.

Andrew
What's the organization Eq Okay, cool.

Sean Sun
There's a lot of ah so um, I will say that leading up to it I've never like I wanted to do it just because like I you know I trust my friend Melissa's opinion on these things and um um I think she thinks good thoughts about these things she she. Is the head of d I I believe at the now University Of Washington and Seattle boy no university whatever in in the in the pacific northwest um um I I don't totally know like everything that's going to happen.

Andrew
Cool.

Sean Sun
I'm also trying to kind of go in a little bit blind but my understanding was that it's It's a hu class that also ties into leadership I Kind of ah originally heard about it as an emotion intelligence class I will say that for the longest time I've kind of just been like do I really need to go is it going to be like really sort of. Base level like Eq things or am I What do I really have like things that unpack at a thing like this because from my understanding you kind of go to the dolomites with a bunch of strangers and you you sort of form these sort of relationships because you you.

Andrew
He.

Sean Sun
Are you practice a lot of vulnerability with them. You're you're kind of put in positions where you are have to practice these levels of vulnerability. Um, and I don't think I've necessarily I've never felt like I've ever had like totally issues with doing that sort of thing I don't think I'm like um ah I mean.

Andrew
He.

Sean Sun
Could be wrong I could be very blind to my own sort of you know actions and whatnot. Um, um, but I I guess in that in in like the same vein of expert beginnerness. One of the things that like I shouldn't be an expert beginner at and something that. Um, I felt myself start here at an expert dinnerner level. Want to do it from a better way than go through sort of like a trough of disillusionment or or lack like feeling like a lack of skill um is just generally leadership. Um, you know I think it was. Really easy to lead a company when ah it was a team of like purely just like designers and for marketers and contractors where it's not really leadership. It's just project management. It's just like hey can you do this thing and this thing and if you don't do it I'll just end up doing it and that's not great either. But like. And and like feedback is really easy to give when it's just about design or something tactical or like this button should be more Xyz um people leadership. Ah that is past like like I think like people leadership.

Andrew
Um.

Sean Sun
Like the part of future leadership in terms of getting your team to like you super easy. Um getting your team to like you and still be strict about about like what needs to be done and like to delegate correctly and to also like there's the whole thing about like delegating is this idea of like. Not letting people put monkeys on your table to let people deal with their own problems but actually like doing that like implementing the feeling of like like actual managerial or leadership things is like super uncomfortable. Um.

Sean Sun
And then and then I don't I had a conversation with Louissa a long time ago and and she was like you're super open but actually you don't practice any level of like vulnerability even though we've known each other forever and I think that's like a fair so like a fair read and that left me like so like gasping for a little bit but.

Andrew
Yeah, interesting I feel like you're relatively vulnerable with me but I don't know if you're like that with everyone and also I can see maybe where she's coming from.

Sean Sun
Um.

Sean Sun
Um, and you.

Sean Sun
Um, for sure sure.

Sean Sun
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I mean I I mean I I mean I think so like I don't think I'm not yeah um I don't think I'm ah.

Andrew
Ah, can see maybe where that's couching couching it. But.

Andrew
You're not totally closed off but you sometimes are vulnerable to a point and there might be room for you to push it even more.

Sean Sun
Right.

Sean Sun
Sure Sure Yeah, Absolutely. Um and I think you know I think just um, you know I've I've been I've struggled to give Um I I think I've struggled to give. Feedback that resonates with my leadership and also just folks in my life when they're at like a much more senior level than I am or or just have yeah.

Andrew
Um, yeah.

Andrew
Um, it's really hard. Yeah giving feedback so one giving feedback on things that you feel to be true, but that are kind of squishy and hard to feel.

Sean Sun
Rain.

Andrew
Point at direct examples of is something that I've always struggled with like it's great. You mentioned design work. It's great when you can give feedback and you can say look at this thing This is very clearly why this thing doesn't work. But so often the stuff we're.

Sean Sun
Right.

Sean Sun
Um.

Sean Sun
Right.

Andrew
Giving feedback on when it comes to people leadership like you're describing is much more subtle and nuanced and it can be hard to point at specific examples. But there's this gut feeling that you have that you should be telling this person this thing.

Sean Sun
Right now.

Sean Sun
Great.

Andrew
That's something I would I would love to get better at and then it's also scary to give people critical feedback because it can be upsetting to them and it can cause them to not like you but like having people like you shouldn't be.

Sean Sun
I think.

Andrew
Should be a side effect of good leadership. Not the intention of good leadership.

Sean Sun
Right? right? I mean I Also think that like um, there's There's 2 reasons I think ah, there's like a level of fear when it comes to giving someone that sort of feedback is not only whether or not they like me because like I can like grit my teeth and bear like like kind of move past that. Um. Because it's not like I haven't fired someone before or having giving critical feedback in that way but like it's about conviction of whether or not I'm right or wrong about the thing and then it's this idea that like so you know I can give I can give someone feedback and say like well did you like if you have a problem with X Person. You should go address it with them. But then like when they're like. How do I do that I have no idea I don't know how to actually help you through these problems whatsoever besides like very loose like it's It's why you don't actually go to your friends and make them your therapist you go to like a professional um like like there there are things that like. People say be out of common sense or instinct that can youra or be wrong and I'm like weirdly terrified of being wrong in certain areas because I think it has downstream effects right? right.

Andrew
Sure because it can be very painful for both people. Um, yeah, and I think that's why feedback is also something that should be done with care and that requires a lot of emotional work and.

Sean Sun
Ah, great.

Andrew
Sometimes require some preparedness if you don't have good advice for somebody the feedback might not be super helpful and so you need to be prepared to point them at resources that at additional resources that could help them or be prepared to go out and find.

Sean Sun
Yeah.

Andrew
People who are more knowledgeable, useful resources things so that you can surround them with the tools they need to grow. Um, but that takes a lot of work and energy and stuff cool. Yeah well.

Sean Sun
No hundred percent um anyway exciting yeah

Andrew
The doloites will be absolutely gorgeous. That's an area that I've wanted to go to that's Italy right? Um, the mountains in Italy Yeah I wanting to go there for a really long time and then I'm really curious to hear how this goes um this is a skill that especially the feedback piece of it that I would love to get better At. At at some point and hopefully I'll have a team to lead again someday and we'll run into these challenges.

Andrew
Do we want to just cut it there. We're at 45 minutes

Sean Sun
Yeah, I'll see you later Bye. Thanks See you next week bye.

Andrew
So you man enjoyed it later.