In this episode Sean is finally ready to reveal the new product Miscreants is building! Meanwhile Andrew's robotics team is getting dangerously close to qualifying for the World Championships, and the guys debate marketing new products. This episode was originally supposed to go out a couple weeks ago, but we're playing with our publishing schedule a bit. 

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:00:01.03
Sean
How you doing?

00:00:01.98
Andrew
I'm good.

00:00:02.68
Sean
Happy Wednesday.

00:00:03.55
Andrew
Happy Wednesday. Things are hectic. My entire life is robotics and also trying to launch a product on Monday. But yeah, I'm kind of delighted that I don't have, no offense, but I'm delighted I don't have any miscreants clients right now.

00:00:09.88
Sean
Hell yeah.

00:00:16.49
Sean
For yet, you know I got two product inbounds in like one day.

00:00:21.53
Andrew
Oh, I knew about one. I didn't know about both.

00:00:24.39
Sean
i got another Well, i actually, technically, Osuja's got another.

00:00:28.53
Andrew
So we're up to three. Great.

00:00:29.56
Sean
Yeah.

00:00:29.65
Andrew
Cool. Cool.

00:00:30.24
Sean
yeah

00:00:30.41
Andrew
Cool.

00:00:31.14
Sean
I can just not close them.

00:00:31.22
Andrew
Okay.

00:00:32.71
Sean
You know?

00:00:33.75
Andrew
I mean, I do like being able to pay my bills.

00:00:35.38
Sean
Cash.

00:00:37.32
Andrew
So yeah, I probably will tell them I can't start on anything until May though. All right, good.

00:00:44.47
Sean
That's fine. That's what we're telling everyone right now. We're all inbound that comes in. We're swamped for RSA at the moment. We can kick things off and start like loosely, but it's like hands-on keyboard stuff.

00:00:57.38
Sean
Everyone's tied up.

00:00:58.19
Andrew
Nice. When is RSA?

00:00:59.99
Sean
April 28th. 26th is when Gyside starts.

00:01:01.61
Andrew
Okay, cool.

00:01:01.81
Sean
Yep.

00:01:03.19
Andrew
So the reason that I can't start anything until May is, one, we're launching Metamonster, the beta, on Monday, and I need to like ramp all of our marketing back up, like start up Google Ads, start doing cold outreach, all that stuff again.

00:01:17.34
Sean
Hell

00:01:18.56
Andrew
But two... There is now a non-zero percent chance that my robotics team makes it to Worlds and has to raise $10,000 and figure out how to get 15 high schoolers to Houston in like two weeks.

00:01:28.86
Sean
he yeah. That's awesome. 10K. Okay.

00:01:32.02
Andrew
Yeah, I don't actually know what it will cost. That's just like kind of a number I'm pulling out of my ass. But like we need to pay for like 15 flights, hotel rooms, and to transport a robot across the country.

00:01:36.40
Sean
okay

00:01:43.57
Andrew
Yeah.

00:01:44.78
Sean
just have them take the pieces apart, put it in a suitcase, and rebuild it. And then you...

00:01:51.04
Andrew
Yeah, that is that sounds like an idea from someone who has never touched a first robotics robot in their life.

00:01:56.15
Sean
I've done Legos and failed at the at the tech whatever it's called, the kinetic Legos.

00:01:57.97
Andrew
Yeah, same thing. Same thing.

00:02:03.14
Andrew
The, like, robo-LEGO thing?

00:02:04.71
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:05.70
Andrew
Yeah.

00:02:05.81
Sean
I tried once was over.

00:02:07.62
Andrew
Yeah, so...

00:02:07.79
Sean
went back. Yeah.

00:02:09.30
Andrew
we crushed our second competition again and what that means this is i'll try not to get too into the weeds because first robotics is so incredibly convoluted but basically we have racked up 112 district ranking points between our first two competitions you need about 70 to qualify for the state championships

00:02:11.88
Sean
Congrats.

00:02:21.21
Sean
Nice. Overqualified.

00:02:29.05
Sean
nice

00:02:34.30
Andrew
which, so we have officially qualified for states. I leave at 6.30 tomorrow morning to go to the state championship for the first time ever.

00:02:37.49
Sean
overqualified

00:02:43.78
Andrew
Our team has never been. And then district rank points are also how you qualify for worlds. So generally speaking, if you get 150 state rank points, then you qualify for worlds.

00:02:58.55
Andrew
And points at states count for triple what normal points count for so if we finish kind of middle of the road and make it into playoffs and like win a playoff match we will almost definitely qualify for worlds Which would be absolutely bonkers because then we, as I mentioned, have to raise a bunch of money, figure out how to get a bunch of kids to Houston, and compete against the best robots in the world as a tiny scrappy team that has never even been to States before.

00:03:33.77
Andrew
And it gets crazier. I've been doing some research. I don't think a Detroit public school from like our school district has ever made it to Worlds.

00:03:46.99
Andrew
There's only one team from DHDC that's ever made it. And I think they might have been like a private team, a private school or a charter school or something. There are a ton of teams from the Detroit metro area who make it, but they're all in the suburbs.

00:04:00.99
Andrew
I think we'd be the first Detroit public school from, at least from our school district, to ever make it to Worlds if this happens.

00:04:08.93
Sean
this is This is like a real like Mr. Shushita moment.

00:04:11.87
Andrew
It's crazy.

00:04:12.81
Sean
This is awesome. This is cool.

00:04:14.19
Andrew
It's like total Cinderella story vibes.

00:04:16.66
Sean
Yeah. was going to work.

00:04:17.56
Andrew
Now, if we make it to Worlds, we are going to get obliterated.

00:04:18.25
Sean
Glee.

00:04:21.47
Andrew
we are like I've been watching videos of some of the top robots, and they're insane.

00:04:25.80
Sean
yeah

00:04:28.59
Andrew
There's a robot from San Francisco that is like, it can put up three or four X the points that we can put up in a given match by itself.

00:04:37.99
Sean
Gotcha.

00:04:38.84
Andrew
It's stupid.

00:04:39.98
Sean
I see.

00:04:40.96
Andrew
But...

00:04:40.98
Sean
What makes their robots so good? I see.

00:04:43.63
Andrew
So actually really, really fucking clever strategy.

00:04:48.36
Sean
i see

00:04:49.24
Andrew
So you have to know a little bit about the game to understand this, but basically like one of the core mechanisms of the game is, you get these like foot-long PVC pipes, and you have to deliver them to a station in the middle of the field and place them on a rung of this like stand. and when So the stand is called the reef, and the the PVC chunks are called coral.

00:05:19.10
Andrew
The whole like theme is like you're, I think I maybe talked about this in a previous episode, you're like repopulating the coral reefs.

00:05:19.85
Sean
Yeah.

00:05:27.14
Andrew
And so there's two of these coral stations where human players will will drop coral down and your robot can grab it. And so one of the most common designs for a robot this year is very similar to our design, which is where you have some sort of like ramp that can catch the coral from the player station, and it'll get fed into a series of like wheels or belts into like some sort of launcher arm kind of thing that can then raise up and down on an elevator and like deliver the coral at the different rungs of the reef.

00:06:05.06
Andrew
Okay, all of that makes sense so far?

00:06:07.07
Sean
I'm mostly following. Yes.

00:06:09.10
Andrew
Okay, and so...

00:06:09.70
Sean
Yes. Or have our editor pop open a, like a video or send us some photos over.

00:06:14.58
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, I will.

00:06:15.56
Sean
Yeah.

00:06:16.33
Andrew
So most teams, you know, are limited by how fast they can drive between the reef and the these human player coral stations, right?

00:06:25.81
Sean
Right.

00:06:26.05
Andrew
and And then how fast they can, like, you know, get to the right spot and and accurately place the coral onto the reef. What these elite teams realized is that if they can pick up from the floor...

00:06:40.30
Andrew
they can just have their human players flood the field with coral. Their human players just chuck PVC pipe onto the field, just as much of it as they possibly can.

00:06:47.38
Sean
right

00:06:51.83
Andrew
And so now the robot doesn't have to go all the way to the coral station. It can just grab it from anywhere on the field and then move to the... And it's like it's a risky strategy because if your robot isn't freaking awesome, it just gets in your way and it's really hard to maneuver.

00:07:08.69
Andrew
But if you have a top tier robot, now all of a sudden you've cut your cycle time down from like a second and a half, two seconds to like a quarter of a second.

00:07:08.72
Sean
Right. Yeah.

00:07:17.94
Andrew
And so now you can just place three times the amount of coral that everyone else can. So it's actually like kind of just really cool strategy combined with like really good computer vision stuff.

00:07:27.26
Sean
yeah

00:07:31.03
Sean
Sweet. aya I have no idea what these what robots look like.

00:07:35.46
Andrew
Yeah.

00:07:35.67
Sean
So in my head, it's just like a BattleBots arena with like a robot with a ramp and then a bunch of students chucking batons at it. That's the image in my mind at the moment.

00:07:45.12
Andrew
in you're not like drastically far off. Like it's like they're, they're basically three foot by three foot squares with mechanisms coming off of them.

00:07:48.99
Sean
Nice.

00:07:56.03
Sean
Gotcha. Okay.

00:07:57.44
Andrew
And so, yeah, like our mechanism is we have like a ramp on one side and then we have an elevator kind of in the middle, which is just like, you know, a system that can go up and down.

00:08:04.39
Sean
Right.

00:08:08.55
Andrew
And that elevator on the front has like a little, know, like launcher attached to it and so the ramp you know it just slides down the ramp through the elevator into the launcher and then gets raised up and dropped and then like these but these elite bots they have like their elevator can also fold down and and extend that way and it's got like a little hand arm claw thing that can suck up coral and then it can raise raise it and place it it's they're nuts

00:08:20.18
Sean
right

00:08:41.84
Andrew
it really is cool to watch uh some of these elite teams yeah yeah so i don't know if you should pray for us to make it to worlds or pray for us not to make it to worlds but pray to the robot gods

00:08:44.27
Sean
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Sweet. Cool.

00:08:56.20
Sean
Nah, go Worlds. Go to Worlds. Yeah, Claude, ChatGPT, Mistral, DeepSeek.

00:09:01.24
Andrew
yeah

00:09:08.53
Sean
Okay, well, congrats slash good luck.

00:09:12.20
Andrew
Thanks.

00:09:13.46
Andrew
Thanks, thanks.

00:09:14.44
Sean
I hope you, yeah, I hope you get to go to Houston. That sounds awesome.

00:09:18.02
Andrew
i think i I think I hope so, too, but i it's going to be so fucking exhausting if we have to go to Houston.

00:09:18.10
Sean
That sounds great for the kids.

00:09:26.73
Sean
It's a good, I feel like it's a good side, like, I don't know, B story to the Metamonster stuff. You know, like, it's cool that it's like, your newsletters are, you're like, your Metamonster updates are, here's Metamonster, we're launching.

00:09:43.37
Sean
But also, look, we're doing things in robotics, which is, yeah.

00:09:45.77
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't actually include a robot update in the Metamonster email today. Maybe I should have.

00:09:53.84
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:09:54.16
Andrew
A

00:09:54.33
Sean
You should, you should always include Metamonster, oh sorry, a Robot of the Tate.

00:09:57.59
Andrew
robot update? Yeah.

00:09:59.07
Sean
Yeah.

00:09:59.20
Andrew
Yeah. Also, thank you for catching my error on my Metamonster launch announcement.

00:10:05.40
Sean
No problem.

00:10:05.56
Andrew
i sent out a launch announcement to, as our friend Alex Hillman taught us, to like pull back the slingshot, build the anticipation, and I included the wrong fucking date.

00:10:18.62
Sean
I think it's good.

00:10:18.76
Andrew
Womp womp.

00:10:19.26
Sean
I hear though that has more engagement and more like higher open rates when you send a follow-up.

00:10:24.47
Andrew
Just confuse the shit out of people.

00:10:24.67
Sean
It's like, oh, I fucked up. Yeah, yeah.

00:10:28.69
Sean
It creates air of mystique, you know?

00:10:31.81
Andrew
Sure. Yeah.

00:10:32.81
Sean
Yeah.

00:10:33.22
Andrew
Well, sorry. We'll go with that.

00:10:34.95
Sean
How many folks are on that mailing list right now?

00:10:36.39
Sean
a hundred 100?

00:10:37.24
Andrew
About 300.

00:10:37.28
Sean
Or is it yours? That's pretty good. That's pretty solid.

00:10:40.47
Andrew
It's not bad. I'm still convinced that no one's going to sign up on Monday. I'm like pretty convinced no one's going to sign up.

00:10:48.33
Sean
What's your click through on the current, on this open, on this one?

00:10:53.13
Andrew
My open rates are usually around 40%.

00:10:56.19
Sean
Yeah.

00:10:57.15
Andrew
then, honestly, most of my emails don't have compelling reason to click. Like, a lot of times I try to include all of the content you need in the email.

00:11:03.18
Sean
Hmm.

00:11:06.66
Andrew
So I don't know what my click-through rates are going to be. You know, it looks like, yeah, i mean, like, my highest click-through rate is only, like, 3% or something.

00:11:17.98
Andrew
But again, i don't have many where I'm, like,

00:11:18.50
Sean
Gotcha.

00:11:21.03
Andrew
really trying to get people to click so i don't know we'll see i wrote a blog post last week and have been promoting that and you can technically sign up for metamonster right now uh and no one has signed up so i might need to work on my conversion rates or something i don't know

00:11:26.80
Sean
Gotcha.

00:11:42.79
Sean
yeah

00:11:46.47
Sean
It just takes time. It's not like you're doing the hot new AI frontier model stuff, you know?

00:11:48.09
Andrew
yeah

00:11:53.60
Andrew
Isn't that exactly what we're doing?

00:11:55.55
Sean
No, I know, but you're not, like... Like...

00:11:58.60
Andrew
Not like actually creating new models.

00:12:01.24
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. you're You're not doing, like, cool... Like, I get that you're doing, like, a wrapper around the stuff, but I just mean...

00:12:05.44
Andrew
Wow, Sean. Tell us what you how you really feel.

00:12:07.39
Sean
i

00:12:09.04
Andrew
We're not we're not cool.

00:12:10.01
Sean
you're You're not not like 50 PhD

00:12:10.20
Andrew
Metamonster isn't cool.

00:12:14.22
Andrew
No, we're not 50 PhDs.

00:12:14.96
Sean
yeahd holders but building DeepSeq.

00:12:15.86
Andrew
We're zero PhDs.

00:12:19.74
Andrew
Yeah, fair.

00:12:19.80
Sean
Yeah.

00:12:22.38
Andrew
Yeah. the the post got decent traffic but yeah once again like my screaming frog blog post you know almost no waiting list conversions came from that i think which kind of makes sense like people are reading that one not really too my hope was people would read it and go this sounds like a pain in the ass let me try metamonster uh but it seems like people were read it and were like all right cool now gonna go do this in screaming frog

00:12:27.22
Sean
Okay.

00:12:30.20
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:12:50.58
Sean
Yeah.

00:12:51.98
Andrew
Which, to be fair, is what the blog post is about, how to do it in Screaming Frog.

00:12:52.02
Sean
yeah

00:12:55.48
Sean
Yeah.

00:12:56.34
Andrew
So I guess like that's kind of on me.

00:13:00.46
Sean
Yeah. i Well, i think I think that's not... There is value just building authority, you know, and providing good content, so...

00:13:07.48
Andrew
yeah. I think very few people these days read a blog post written by some new tool they've never heard of and then immediately convert to that tool.

00:13:16.32
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:13:16.46
Andrew
It's the whole like six touch thing or whatever gotta.

00:13:18.89
Sean
yeah yeah

00:13:20.78
Andrew
Yeah. So I'm not actually that discouraged, but I am just like, know, that, that classic nervousness before a launch where I'm just like, is anyone going to give a fuck about this thing at all?

00:13:32.57
Sean
Now I feel that.

00:13:32.79
Andrew
So yeah.

00:13:33.57
Sean
I feel that. i i'm feeling I'm feeling nervous the closer we get to a product. Dustin, our new engineer, we get daily updates and it's crazy.

00:13:42.10
Andrew
Yeah. Uh-huh.

00:13:43.97
Sean
The speed at which he is doing things is insane.

00:13:46.38
Andrew
That's awesome.

00:13:47.27
Sean
Like it's a thing now and I'm kind of every every day that he gets closer and closer, get more and more nervous that we have to do this thing for real.

00:13:58.13
Andrew
Yeah, you're going to have to actually market something for once instead of just building it.

00:14:02.49
Sean
That's not true. That's not true. I can market it. i Well, sorry. I can i could just sell it without marketing it. can just give it to all of our clients. And then...

00:14:11.72
Andrew
Yeah. Hell yeah.

00:14:20.20
Andrew
Have you started thinking about your marketing strategy for this once it's live?

00:14:20.39
Sean
I do think...

00:14:23.89
Andrew
Like obviously using it with clients is like built-in

00:14:28.21
Sean
No, I think i my my plan is like to keep that in beta for a while and to have clients use it and then build content types and like wait until.

00:14:40.50
Sean
Well, guess I guess it's in June, so. Shit. OK, no, I haven't thought about marketing plan would be like traditional SaaS.

00:14:49.15
Andrew
we Wait, wait, wait. What's in June?

00:14:51.13
Sean
Oh, you're right. OK, sorry. The thing that we are building basically is the thing that replaces what Webflow is deprecating in June. So our timeline is June.

00:15:00.02
Andrew
so

00:15:03.27
Andrew
You're definitely going to, you should get some Webflow app store juice, hopefully, out of this, right? Or like, are you going to have anyone, hire anyone to like, know, comment on in the Webflow forums and Facebook groups and stuff?

00:15:17.99
Sean
no but we can i think okay so here's what i thought about one is there's obviously other webflow agencies that we know so we can shop it over to them and say hey do you want to use this with your clients et etc have a have a channel reseller agreement in place you know we have 20 of like of of a rev share i think they'll be happy to get that sort of stuff get their feedback.

00:15:46.20
Sean
I think

00:15:46.82
Andrew
Do you think they'll care about that?

00:15:49.40
Sean
the rep share or the product.

00:15:50.92
Andrew
Rev share. Because like when I was running an agency...

00:15:53.28
Sean
Hmm.

00:15:55.59
Andrew
if someone had offered me a 20% rev share to like hawk their product, I would have looked at the numbers and gone, this is not worth my time. Like 20% like of, you know, cause we had a relatively low client volume and relatively high tickets, like ticket price.

00:16:09.24
Sean
Hmm.

00:16:14.83
Andrew
And so, you know, our, it wasn't worth it to us to make 10 bucks a month extra off of a client because it was like, no, no,

00:16:24.40
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:16:24.71
Andrew
weird We want to make $40,000 a month off of a client. I don't, the $10 a month is not really worth my time.

00:16:32.33
Sean
I think the contract values in Webflow, like more Webflow agencies is lower than that.

00:16:37.52
Andrew
Sure.

00:16:37.92
Sean
Like we're talking like 10K and less for a lot of these, especially the smaller places.

00:16:37.83
Andrew
Uh-huh.

00:16:43.72
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:16:44.71
Sean
And a lot of these Webflow folks are used to already selling Webflow to their clients and getting rev share a kickback from it as well.

00:16:51.02
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:16:53.61
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:16:53.80
Sean
Like we're probably just a really stupid agency for not doing that and like not applying for the enterprise. like the enterprise partner program is not hard to get into it's a form and like a test and like we have an enterprise rep already so it's honestly really easy and we get like it's a pretty sizable kickback for all that sort of stuff so anyway a lot of waffle agencies already have a waffle partner program or part of that i think and you know it's such a natural integration i think they'll be happy to get that kickback

00:17:26.23
Sean
and i don't know it's just like a lot of these agencies aren't charging that much money to do webflow stuff but blogging is always going to be a pain in the ass and i think

00:17:30.74
Andrew
yeah

00:17:35.28
Andrew
What would it take for you to test this? Test this hypothesis?

00:17:39.66
Sean
phone a friend, just be like, yo. That's my, that's my strategy, by the way, is just call up, like call up a couple agencies that I already know.

00:17:49.21
Andrew
Yeah.

00:17:49.31
Sean
You know, hit up, hit up Jacob at BX Studio, Peter Kang's spot, and be like, you guys want this thing?

00:17:56.65
Andrew
Could you do that now? like Could you do that next week?

00:17:59.46
Sean
No, absolutely not, because I think they're vibe code. I think anyone I tell is going vibe code an alternative to it.

00:18:06.45
Andrew
I mean, you you have seen yourself how hard it is to actually get something off the ground that's like production ready.

00:18:14.81
Sean
I don't think so. I don't think it's that hard to replicate.

00:18:17.83
Andrew
You use yourself. Also, I'm kind of losing track of which idea you're actually building. Are you?

00:18:24.41
Sean
The editor. The editor.

00:18:25.21
Andrew
Okay. the

00:18:25.82
Sean
Yeah.

00:18:25.94
Andrew
Okay, cool.

00:18:26.95
Sean
i don't think it's that hard to... I think, okay, like...

00:18:30.93
Andrew
we We had a whole conversation about how it's easy to get to prototype, but hard to get to real production quality software.

00:18:30.95
Sean
One...

00:18:37.85
Sean
Sure, but I don't think that everyone has the same standard of production quality software.

00:18:44.12
Andrew
Hmm.

00:18:45.00
Sean
And I think it is easy to vibe code your way into something that generally works, whether or not it's broken or not. Like it's, i don't know.

00:18:54.97
Sean
i would I would rather hold off and...

00:18:56.57
Andrew
i I think you're doing the classic founder bullshit where you're like, I'm not going to tell anyone about my idea because they're going to steal my idea. And in reality, like getting people to care about your idea is harder than you think it is.

00:19:10.10
Sean
I hear you on the first part. I think you are wrong in terms of how easy it is to get people to care about it. But I don't know. that's That's also with a lot of bias, with a good couple pounds of bias there.

00:19:25.10
Sean
yeah i think i think it'd be i think my order of operations is just to try it out with a couple clients and then to worry about agency partners and everything like that so i don't really care to necessarily tell a few agencies i mean i have i have spoken at least one agency person who was like oh that's cool would would be useful for what it's worth but it's like you know two text messages or three text messages rather than like a put your money where your mouth is sort of thing. Yeah.

00:19:58.30
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:20:00.75
Andrew
What are your goals for this thing?

00:20:00.90
Sean
I did have a cool.

00:20:02.21
Andrew
You want it to be like a self-sustaining SaaS, right?

00:20:08.00
Sean
what What are you getting? where are you getting with that?

00:20:10.44
Andrew
I think you need to care more about marketing sooner than you do, than you're acting like you do.

00:20:16.46
Sean
Is it?

00:20:16.46
Andrew
i think you're I think you're drastically underestimating.

00:20:16.71
Sean
No, I think, I think you're right.

00:20:18.94
Andrew
As someone who has spent the last eight months trying to get people to give a fuck about a SaaS, I think you're drastically underestimating how hard this is going to be.

00:20:24.24
Sean
uh-huh

00:20:26.88
Andrew
This part's going to be. I think you're assuming like, I can just sort of like i think you have an advantage.

00:20:32.09
Andrew
You're absolutely right. You have connections to your target audience and like in, and a model that can grow with a relatively small number of quote unquote sales because of the potential for like resell sales or like, just like, you know a value metric where you grow based off of like number of, of sites or whatever.

00:20:53.43
Andrew
I, yeah, but a yeah you mean you are You are better at marketing than I am, for sure. Okay.

00:21:02.09
Sean
wait hold on on you know i think you're right by the way i just don't want to i just don't want to do the whole agency partner thing i was just telling you that's what i thought of so far i think you're right

00:21:10.71
Andrew
Okay.

00:21:12.43
Sean
That was my my, if you roll it back to the tape, there was like an oh shit moment of like, i don't have a marketing plan. I should think about that.

00:21:17.84
Andrew
Okay.

00:21:19.19
Sean
For the record. hither ah i think you're right. I should be thinking about marketing. What I meant was so far, all all I've thought about was selling to our clients and agency partnerships.

00:21:25.11
Andrew
okay

00:21:30.10
Andrew
Yeah, which is a good first step.

00:21:30.48
Sean
But I don't think I've thought about.

00:21:32.05
Andrew
Like, you could hopefully get to five customers that way. The other part of my challenge, though, is if if that's all you've thought of so far, I think you should talk to those agency partners sooner rather than later.

00:21:37.28
Sean
Yeah.

00:21:50.62
Sean
I think if I were them, I would vibe code the thing and beat me to the punch, though.

00:21:53.82
Andrew
Yeah, but one, a lot of people aren't as dumb as you.

00:21:54.85
Sean
That's that's okay.

00:21:57.14
Andrew
And I say lovingly, I'm joking.

00:21:59.86
Sean
Go ahead. go ahead yeah What's the second one?

00:22:00.46
Andrew
joking

00:22:01.46
Sean
second What's the second one?

00:22:02.90
Andrew
Two, I just think this is a classic founder bullshit where everyone's like, my idea is brilliant, people are going to steal my idea.

00:22:04.02
Sean
Uh-huh.

00:22:09.96
Andrew
And in reality, most people have their own ideas that they think are brilliant and don't give a fuck about your ideas.

00:22:11.55
Sean
That's a good point.

00:22:15.97
Sean
that's good point

00:22:17.61
Andrew
I just, the number of times that I've seen someone actually have their idea get stolen because they like talked to a potential customer or partner before the product was built.

00:22:28.13
Andrew
And like that person actually managed to execute and get to market before them. i've I've been working in product and early stage startups now for like 10 years. I've heard lots and lots of people have that exact fear.

00:22:40.54
Andrew
And the number of times I've seen it happen is zero. not Not one, not two, not like, well, there was zero. And not even come close once.

00:22:53.66
Andrew
Like, it just never happens.

00:22:55.99
Sean
Yeah.

00:22:57.30
Sean
I'm not to say I mean, you're not wrong.

00:23:01.90
Sean
You're not wrong. I'm not necessarily... Let me think about what I would do for marketing rather than just talking to agency partners about... Like, it's not like I haven't had a conversation with at least one Webflow agency who hasn't been like, okay, cool.

00:23:16.17
Andrew
Cool.

00:23:18.16
Sean
Seems like a useful thing.

00:23:20.47
Andrew
Yeah. One's not enough, but

00:23:22.88
Sean
Sure, sure, sure. But I don't know if that's necessarily just my singular strategy for growth is what I'm going for. like

00:23:29.54
Andrew
sure.

00:23:29.84
Sean
like There's no reason not to think about the other things to do for marketing.

00:23:33.37
Andrew
No, but now it sounds like you're procrastinating on talking to people.

00:23:36.98
Sean
Totally. I hate talking to people. They can just buy it.

00:23:43.20
Sean
i think we I also think we have a very different timeline. Well, okay. i don't think we have very different timelines. I think we just have slightly different timelines and expectations of the thing at the moment.

00:23:53.23
Andrew
Yeah, totally. Which is why I asked, do you want this to be a self-sustaining SaaS? And to be fair, like the second part of that question is, I guess, to your point, how fast do you want it to be a self-sustaining SaaS?

00:24:06.65
Andrew
It sounds to me like like all of these things, and I say this with love, kind of sound like excuses to not do the hard part.

00:24:13.69
Sean
That's okay. Go ahead.

00:24:18.00
Sean
Which part do you think is the hard part?

00:24:20.14
Andrew
Actually getting customers.

00:24:22.37
Andrew
And maybe this is a difference between you and me, where I've always felt like the product part was easy and the customer part is hard. And maybe to you, it's the other way around. I don't know.

00:24:34.53
Sean
well i think my first five customers is easy i think right like

00:24:38.21
Andrew
Great. so So why not start getting them now?

00:24:41.72
Sean
like getting them to pay for it now or getting them to use it or

00:24:45.80
Andrew
I mean, I didn't get anybody to pay for it. Although I did then immediately find that that like reduced their incentive to to use it. Yeah.

00:24:57.73
Sean
Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's take a step back. What are you suggesting I do? Talk to customers or talk to agency partners?

00:25:05.75
Andrew
to me there To me, agency partners are just a form of customer.

00:25:05.80
Sean
Because I can...

00:25:08.65
Andrew
So I'm really thinking the agency partners, because those feel to me like your most obvious first five customers is like agency folks. agency folks and Fair.

00:25:17.66
Sean
why isn't it Why isn't it just my clients now that all say they need it?

00:25:23.17
Andrew
I guess. okay okay You're, cause you're, you are, you're thinking about licensing this, like each account is one site, not, there's not like a, you know, a site value metric.

00:25:37.63
Sean
What do you mean? What is the site value measure?

00:25:39.89
Andrew
Uh, sorry, sorry. in pricing value metric is like this thing goes up, you charge more. And so, you're thinking about this. It sounds like more as like each site would pay for this once, not, agencies would pay for like five sites at a time or 10 sites at a time or something.

00:25:57.26
Sean
Yeah. no No. No. I think i think that each yeah each webflow each Webflow workspace would pay for it on a monthly basis.

00:26:06.82
Andrew
Okay.

00:26:07.34
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:08.05
Andrew
Okay.

00:26:08.25
Sean
Yeah.

00:26:09.97
Andrew
so you're looking at your customers, your ICP as the actual like content team.

00:26:16.57
Sean
yeah

00:26:18.20
Andrew
and so, you have talked to two clients about using this.

00:26:25.39
Sean
Yes. Yes.

00:26:27.00
Andrew
Okay, cool.

00:26:28.80
Sean
Yeah.

00:26:28.87
Andrew
And so you have, you think you have four to five clients who would pay for it when it, when it's ready.

00:26:33.47
Sean
Yeah. Totally. 100%.

00:26:35.87
Andrew
Sick.

00:26:36.47
Sean
100%.

00:26:37.16
Andrew
Cool.

00:26:37.23
Sean
Yeah. That is the part I talk about all... Not to you. i mean, like... like that that That conversation is the conversation I have all the time. i had it yesterday, actually. Yeah, yeah.

00:26:47.22
Andrew
Cool. Okay.

00:26:49.05
Sean
Uh-huh.

00:26:49.87
Andrew
Okay. That's, that is different. I still think you should talk to the agency partners too, but yeah.

00:26:54.30
Sean
I think you're right. think it's a good call. Yeah, I think you're right. I'd prefer to have something to demo them for what it's worth, but sure, I think you're right.

00:27:02.39
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, i I feel like you could definitely have the conversation without something to demo and then follow up and be like, hey, remember that thing we talked about? I have a demo ready. And then, you know, but either way.

00:27:17.78
Sean
sure I mean, we are like maybe five days away from it being done. So I'm sure I can line.

00:27:24.06
Andrew
Okay, fine. Fine. You're... you're

00:27:25.84
Sean
so like I can line things up. i can dearre You're right. I'm probably procrastinating. So yeah, I'll line a conversation up.

00:27:32.73
Andrew
Hell yeah.

00:27:33.16
Sean
that that'll be my That'll be my small effort of the week. Line agency partnership conversation up.

00:27:39.14
Andrew
Sick.

00:27:39.79
Sean
Yeah.

00:27:39.98
Andrew
That's dope.

00:27:40.76
Sean
Great. All right.

00:27:41.72
Andrew
And you've got built-in customers from your clients. Damn, I'm fucking jealous.

00:27:45.80
Sean
Well, that's why I'm building.

00:27:48.04
Andrew
I know, I know.

00:27:48.57
Sean
That was but was the hack.

00:27:48.80
Andrew
That's why you're building it.

00:27:50.31
Sean
That was the...

00:27:50.75
Andrew
Yeah, I keep forgetting that.

00:27:52.83
Sean
I see, I see.

00:27:53.64
Andrew
I keep forgetting that.

00:27:53.90
Sean
Yeah.

00:27:54.56
Andrew
I i think because I'm in Metamonster world where we're charging the agencies, which maybe we're going to find out that was wrong.

00:27:59.45
Sean
know

00:28:01.37
Andrew
That was the wrong thing to do. But I think Metamonster is a slightly different product because it's more of like a cost of goods sold than like a something that, you know, the individual teams would want to pay for,

00:28:09.81
Sean
Yeah.

00:28:15.25
Andrew
i think

00:28:16.62
Andrew
At least in its current iteration.

00:28:19.27
Sean
For now. For now. I mean, yeah yeah, yeah.

00:28:20.81
Andrew
Yeah.

00:28:22.92
Sean
I mean, I don't know. i don't I don't have a good, like, sense of whether or not an internal SEO would pay for Metamonster.

00:28:32.68
Andrew
I think no right now.

00:28:33.18
Sean
I feel like, mm-hmm.

00:28:34.64
Andrew
Like, in its current iteration where all it can do is page titles and meta descriptions.

00:28:34.91
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:28:38.50
Andrew
Like, I've seen it.

00:28:38.68
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:28:39.18
Andrew
the The two people we have in the alpha who are... one i haven't asked one of them to pay, but like I should probably have a conversation with him, but I'm pretty positive based on his usage that like, I wouldn't recommend he pay for it.

00:28:48.55
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:28:54.78
Andrew
uh, and the other one, you know, who was getting value out of it, was our friend, Mike. And I talked to him and he's like, yeah, no, I like it's useful for me in this short spurt, but it's not going to be useful to me yet on an ongoing basis.

00:29:08.61
Andrew
And you got to get that ongoing basis thing figured out to make a SAS tool worth it to someone. and so like, yeah if we you know

00:29:19.15
Sean
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:29:19.84
Andrew
if we add some like automation stuff, if we add some more you sort of optimizations we can do for people, like I could see us getting to a point where it's a useful tool for internal teams, but in its current iteration, I don't think it is.

00:29:32.96
Sean
Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, anyway, Zach Stevens, Conversion Factory. That's calling you out. I'm going to be knocking on your door, your LinkedIn door, in about 40 minutes.

00:29:44.99
Andrew
Hell yeah.

00:29:45.88
Sean
Scheduling that call. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. i Yeah, anyway. The reason, I think the reason I'm like, I haven't thought about marketing is just because I'm trying to cheat the whole thing by getting our clients slash previous clients or whatever it's just start using it but yeah yeah yeah i did have a i know what my i know my hook is it's blogging on webflow sucks because i said that yesterday at a happy hour hey watched someone i wasn't talking to just lean in and go yep

00:30:12.92
Andrew
Okay.

00:30:22.97
Andrew
but Okay.

00:30:26.41
Sean
Yeah, and

00:30:26.68
Andrew
Cool. Hell yeah.

00:30:29.32
Sean
but we'll see. It has to

00:30:33.10
Sean
if your premise is blogging on Webflow sucks, your product has to not suck.

00:30:37.58
Andrew
Has to not suck. Yeah.

00:30:39.62
Sean
I think we're still we're still figuring out tables are tables are hard. you know Building but like good web tables, little difficult. there's a lot of tests There's a lot of testing. There's a lot of there's a lot more roadblocks we've run into as we've been working on this.

00:30:52.67
Andrew
Classic.

00:30:53.53
Sean
So like there's an API rate limit.

00:30:53.89
Andrew
Yeah.

00:30:56.26
Sean
And like, oh,

00:30:57.05
Andrew
Oh, that's a pain.

00:30:58.24
Sean
Oh, there's like, oh, what if, yeah, you're right. Maybe, what maybe, maybe nobody else can vibe code it faster than we can build it because of the headstart of what we have given the fact that of all the other headaches we've run into. yeah Yeah. We also have to wait for Webflow to approve our app.

00:31:16.79
Andrew
Of course, yeah.

00:31:17.99
Sean
Yeah. yeah So there's all that stuff.

00:31:20.61
Andrew
Have you started that that part of the process?

00:31:23.03
Sean
No, we just found out. I just found out about the part of the process. like

00:31:25.80
Andrew
Cool.

00:31:26.84
Sean
it's There's like approving the app in the Webflow app ecosystem. That's one thing. But there's also just like OAuth-ing through Webflow. And that has its own, i think, application process.

00:31:34.78
Andrew
Oh, OK.

00:31:38.02
Andrew
Cool.

00:31:40.28
Andrew
Speaking of CMSs, did I tell you austin gave me a working demo of our WordPress plugin yesterday?

00:31:47.09
Sean
No. Is it awesome? Is it?

00:31:49.75
Andrew
It's cool. Yeah. there's still like a, a lot of little things to dial in.

00:31:50.75
Sean
OK.

00:31:54.27
Andrew
Like we have to do our like API key generation and stuff.

00:31:54.84
Sean
Yeah. Sweet.

00:31:59.36
Andrew
uh, but yeah, I mean, he was in like two weeks, week and a half able to get, a WordPress plugin that will accept an API key and then has endpoints that we can hit to push content, push optimizations into WordPress.

00:31:58.05
Sean
yeah

00:32:18.19
Sean
sweet

00:32:19.08
Andrew
One of the tricky things about the, I've been talking to some more people, putting feelers out there to some of our alpha users about like, would custom prompts or, you know, chat with your site be interesting? What do you think about this?

00:32:35.21
Andrew
And one of the things that I would have to figure out if we go down that route is like, how the fuck do we get an open-ended custom prompt into WordPress or into a CMS? Because we don't know what the data is.

00:32:52.07
Sean
How do you get a... Wait. How do you get an open-ended custom prompt? Why would you get it into WordPress?

00:32:56.78
Andrew
If people, like, say you write a prompt to fixed typos, right?

00:33:01.41
Sean
Yeah.

00:33:02.39
Andrew
Then you want to be able to sync those fixed typos to your CMS through Metamonster, ideally.

00:33:09.72
Sean
Yep. Yep.

00:33:12.23
Andrew
How do you do that if we don't know what the prompt did? So like it's easy for us to build at, although it is going to be a headache, like every time we roll out a new generation, we're going to have to update all of our plugins to be able to support that thing.

00:33:17.79
Sean
oh Oh...

00:33:25.56
Sean
Yeah.

00:33:30.23
Andrew
updating that field in the CMS. So that that's going to be a pain in and of itself. But then if we have just custom open-ended prompts, then it's going to be the only way I can think of for us to manage that is to start going like full agentic and like have the agent identify

00:33:39.53
Sean
yeah

00:33:47.12
Sean
yeah

00:33:50.21
Andrew
i

00:33:51.43
Sean
yeah

00:33:52.34
Andrew
And that the agent would have to live inside of the plugin. It would have to live on the WordPress side, which I don't even know if that's possible. I don't know if anyone's built like an agent.

00:34:02.49
Andrew
And it would be so risky because like, what if it overwrites something you don't want it to overwrite?

00:34:04.45
Sean
right Is this where, like, MSCP comes in?

00:34:10.28
Andrew
i don't...

00:34:11.20
Sean
Is this where?

00:34:13.46
Andrew
me I don't think so.

00:34:17.05
Sean
Yeah. I see what you mean, though.

00:34:17.75
Andrew
No, I...

00:34:18.47
Sean
There's, like, well, there is, like, a WordPress REST API, right?

00:34:24.96
Andrew
Yeah, but you don't know what fields, you don't know what to tell WordPress to update if you don't know what you have.

00:34:25.10
Sean
And that's half the back.

00:34:32.15
Sean
Yeah, yeah. So, like, if you have...

00:34:36.43
Sean
Can you...

00:34:39.02
Sean
Can't you... Uh-huh.

00:34:40.54
Andrew
So like the way the plugin works right now is the plugin actually has its own API endpoint.

00:34:47.01
Sean
Right.

00:34:47.81
Andrew
that we hit with like, so we call that API endpoint and say, hey, update these pages with this metadata.

00:34:56.78
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:34:56.79
Andrew
And then it you know, puts that into the right place depending on which plugins, which other plugins are installed and whatnot. And so that logic of like, put this here in the CMS is impossible if you don't know what you're putting.

00:35:17.62
Andrew
if you don't know what you have.

00:35:19.38
Sean
Right, right.

00:35:19.97
Andrew
And you, like, AI could, in theory, solve that because you could say, you know, you have, like, a flexible agent that goes, okay, what is this?

00:35:23.64
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:35:28.47
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:35:31.16
Andrew
Okay, let me ask an LLM where in WordPress to make this update. Okay, now I'll, like,

00:35:36.82
Sean
Right.

00:35:40.20
Andrew
you know, call the REST API or whatever.

00:35:41.21
Sean
Go make the...

00:35:44.22
Andrew
but that's really risky because if it hallucinates, then you accidentally overwrite, you know, something important on your website.

00:35:43.53
Sean
Sure.

00:35:49.70
Sean
Right.

00:35:51.53
Andrew
So I don't, I don't think we'd want to do that.

00:35:51.96
Sean
Right, right.

00:35:54.11
Sean
You could have like a human in the loop last mile thing of like, here's the things that we are going to update. Press like compress confirm so that we make the update. So there's that.

00:36:02.27
Andrew
yeah Yeah, you'd probably have to have some sort of check or something.

00:36:05.69
Sean
Yeah.

00:36:05.74
Andrew
but But I don't even how possible that would be to do. Yeah, i don't know. it's It's complicated.

00:36:10.99
Sean
Yeah, okay, I see what you're saying. There's like a level of like instrumentation that's involved that makes it harder. Part of my conversation last night, by the way, is that the frontier, like all the new models don't actually hallucinate that much.

00:36:23.52
Sean
one of the One of the guys was talking about how they were using pente AI to write like pen test reports and all this sort of stuff. Like there's an art to prompting and getting it right and all that sort of stuff. But the only problem that they ran into was that the AI would be like...

00:36:36.71
Sean
would just get, like, when they wrote, like, an incidence response report, for example, it would just, like, it wasn't wrong. It was just very Doomer of the situation.

00:36:48.75
Sean
Like, you have failed login attempts. You have, like, you know, rogue login attempts.

00:36:53.08
Andrew
When you say the new frontier models, like which models are you including in that?

00:36:56.99
Sean
Like, 3.7 Sonnet. Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:59.10
Andrew
Okay. Cause I just ran use 3.7 sonnet to generate emails, like to generate a rough draft of the, of like my onboarding emails that I'm going to be setting up.

00:37:01.61
Sean
Yeah.

00:37:06.00
Sean
yeah

00:37:09.98
Sean
and

00:37:10.72
Andrew
And it just made up testimonials and decided my name was Mike.

00:37:12.83
Sean
oh sick oh okay

00:37:18.23
Sean
is it it is it no that's a mike from metamonster what do you mean that's that's your pseudonym yeah it's better than andrew and austin from metamonster it's not it doesn't hit yeah yeah yeah

00:37:20.06
Andrew
What?

00:37:25.00
Andrew
it does It does roll off the tongue nicely.

00:37:30.02
Andrew
Yeah, those guys.

00:37:34.37
Andrew
So I do not think I'm at the point where I would trust any model willy-nilly overwrite something in my website without like oversight.

00:37:40.72
Sean
Fair. Fair.

00:37:44.61
Sean
fair

00:37:47.30
Andrew
And again, I don't even know

00:37:51.07
Andrew
Yeah, I'd have to talk to Austin, who's been looking at the WordPress code. i don't and don't know.

00:37:55.00
Sean
There's no way you can like, the like the plug, I don't, I don't know what permissions plugins get or anything, but like, can't they like audit sort of what exists currently? And the feedback information, like, like, I don't know.

00:38:09.13
Sean
This WordPress site has this, like has these pages, has these posts, has these plugins, has these settings. I don't know how much WordPress literally will surface up with APIs.

00:38:18.19
Andrew
I think you can do a lot. Like, I don't, I think this is one of the dangers and the positives of WordPress is that it's pretty open-ended. Like, it's not super locked down.

00:38:25.11
Sean
Gotcha.

00:38:28.03
Andrew
But still, like, if you don't know what you're updating, then you don't know what to look for.

00:38:35.39
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you still need that extra interpretation. Yeah.

00:38:42.22
Andrew
Yeah, I guess what you're saying is you could have people manually map it to, they could write a prompt and then you could have like some sort of system where it's like, hey, here are your options for what you can update.

00:38:53.98
Andrew
what Tell us what this prompt is.

00:38:55.38
Sean
yeah yeah hit a hit a confirm if it's if we guessed right like yeah

00:38:59.18
Andrew
Yeah, okay. Yeah, i guess I guess there's something like that that we could do. If we had like, hey, here's all the things our plugin can do. Do any of these things fit what your prompt does?

00:39:11.43
Sean
yeah exactly okay

00:39:12.73
Andrew
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. That's probably the the way to solve it short term, besides going like crazy agent. Agentic.

00:39:21.93
Sean
It'd be cool. It'd be cool. There's a lot of, like, really cool, like, tech that's getting built out here that's separate from, like, Metamonster is, like, a single use case of, like, the ability to crawl the site and turn it into Markdown better than just Firecrawler's or Gina or whatever.

00:39:37.94
Sean
There's a lot of like, other things you're building while building Metamonster, which is cool.

00:39:43.25
Andrew
Yeah, it's kind of nuts. Yeah, like, I still want to open Metamonster up to be, like, way more than just metadata.

00:39:51.81
Sean
Yeah.

00:39:51.96
Sean
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:39:52.96
Andrew
and But, like, that's going to be such a positioning challenge if we get to that point, figuring out, like, how to describe Metamonster, like, who it's for and what the use cases are and, like,

00:40:01.88
Sean
right

00:40:02.15
Andrew
It's so much, it's like the positioning is easy right now, but it the more we try to flexible, we make it the harder that positioning gets.

00:40:14.77
Andrew
But yeah, yeah, one one little feature that I want to add as soon as possible is like just export markdown from your site because like we have the markdown internally.

00:40:22.43
Sean
It

00:40:25.79
Sean
it would be super useful.

00:40:27.42
Andrew
Yeah.

00:40:28.26
Sean
Cool.

00:40:28.25
Andrew
Also, found out Lex has an API where you can create documents inside of Lex.

00:40:33.72
Sean
Cool.

00:40:35.37
Andrew
And so I was like, that would be sick. Maybe one day I'll just go in and build like a little metamonster to Lex like option so that I could push all of my content, my markdown content into Lex.

00:40:50.05
Andrew
And then I could go there to like prompt off of it.

00:40:55.21
Sean
This kind of reminds me of, I think Carbon was was a startup that did something like this. It was just like pipe website content into some, like whatever other thing you wanted to use. It got bought up Perplexity a while back.

00:41:10.86
Sean
So, yeah.

00:41:11.80
Andrew
That's cool.

00:41:12.68
Sean
If, you know, Perplexity wants to buy another one.

00:41:15.11
Andrew
Yeah.

00:41:15.24
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:15.95
Andrew
Yeah. I mean, there is like a world where we end up going in to like, in like a Zapier direction where it's like, we don't try to do everything ourselves, but we try to be the, like the reliable code way to get your website content into the tools that you want to use.

00:41:31.80
Sean
yeah yeah yeah i mean getting it get it out and get it back in is it is kind of cool there's there's there's like some really interesting things there yeah sounds like an engineering nightmare by the way sounds like it sounds like

00:41:47.64
Andrew
Yeah, we have definitely not picked the simplest tool in the world to build. like it It felt simple at first. It was just like, just scrape a web page and...

00:41:53.20
Sean
yeah yeah

00:41:55.89
Andrew
throw it at AI. But then it's like, yeah, all of the pieces. Doing all of the pieces to the standard that we want to do them.

00:42:04.65
Sean
yeah okay

00:42:05.34
Andrew
By the way, like, Ahrefs has a direct MetaMonster competitor now. But they have they don't have any CMS integrations. Like, they're they just have a JavaScript snippet.

00:42:15.89
Sean
yeah yeah their whole thing is dynamic though right it's not yeah yeah yeah that's i mean that's search outlets

00:42:19.90
Andrew
You mean, like, loaded on page load? Yeah. I mean, it's not dynamic. I don't think they're like optimizing it based on the user or anything. Like I think,

00:42:29.18
Sean
I just mean it's light loaded in client side.

00:42:31.07
Andrew
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:31.49
Sean
Yeah.

00:42:32.10
Andrew
Which, like, we will probably do at some point just so that we... Because if you have that JavaScript snippet, then it's, like, you instantly support every CMS.

00:42:44.60
Andrew
But the people I talked to were, like, kind of 50-50 on it. Like, a lot of people were like, yeah, I mean, I guess I would use it. But, like, no one was, like... No one thought it was a good idea.

00:42:55.37
Sean
I don't think it's a good idea.

00:42:55.40
Andrew
It's more like...

00:42:56.21
Sean
I think it's a terrible idea.

00:42:56.53
Andrew
It's more like, I'll hold my nose and do it if I have to.

00:42:59.61
Sean
Yeah, I think it's a, I really dislike that. Like, yeah, fundamentally.

00:43:08.29
Andrew
Same. That's why we didn't start there.

00:43:10.41
Sean
Yeah, yeah. It just feels so dirty. It feels so wrong. yeah oh

00:43:19.14
Andrew
That little shutter was hilarious.

00:43:20.94
Sean
Yeah, it also, don't know, I guess it comes out to like,

00:43:27.25
Sean
especially once it once met once you start supporting things outside of just meta titles, it gets it feels worse and worse, right? Like, imagine all your typos was fixed by a JavaScript snippet rather than just having the correct content.

00:43:33.38
Andrew
Yeah.

00:43:37.40
Andrew
Oh yeah.

00:43:38.87
Sean
Imagine images were getting loaded in by said JavaScript snippet. Like, it kind of makes...

00:43:42.66
Andrew
Yeah.

00:43:45.93
Sean
I mean, not that Ahrefs or Search Atlas or any of the other ones do this sort of thing, but it's kind of like you kind of become a mini-CDN in that way, right?

00:43:55.31
Andrew
You do.

00:43:55.36
Sean
You just...

00:43:55.75
Andrew
And also clients are like dependent on you. So if your service goes down, suddenly there's typos all over their site and their site isn't optimized anymore.

00:43:59.12
Sean
Yeah.

00:44:03.59
Andrew
And like, yeah, it's, it's,

00:44:05.21
Sean
yeah Yeah, I don't like that.

00:44:08.21
Andrew
It's a security nightmare. it's like It's just gross in so many ways. I don't and don't like it at all. Can I tell you one more crazy fun MetaMonster idea I have for the future, just like while we're talking about it?

00:44:20.07
Sean
Go for it. Sure. Sure. Go for it.

00:44:22.67
Andrew
Okay, so we've talked before about wanting to eventually have like recurring crawls where it's like, okay, you crawl it every Friday and tell me what's broken or yeah know what I need to optimize.

00:44:27.81
Sean
Yep.

00:44:35.63
Andrew
Imagine if you get that report in an email, and then you can just reply to the email in plain text in natural language and say, fix these things.

00:44:38.73
Sean
be sweet. be pretty.

00:44:46.08
Sean
be pretty sweet so

00:44:47.21
Andrew
And then it just gets done for you.

00:44:49.31
Sean
yeah dude the future was just reading remember when remember a couple episodes when i ago when i was like chat for for ai is a terrible user experience right and he didn't show just uh also tweeted that by the way but more importantly email emailing my ai button actually sounds so fun yeah

00:45:03.95
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:45:10.96
Andrew
Yeah. I think someone else, this isn't an original idea of mine. Like we might've even talked about this on a past episode, but like email is a great format for AI because it's not live. You're not expecting a response right away.

00:45:26.13
Andrew
it's it's there's like It's structured. There's you know a chain you can follow. it creates It's self-auditing.

00:45:32.09
Sean
Yeah.

00:45:32.86
Andrew
It creates an audit trail. Yeah.

00:45:35.90
Sean
You have search, you can forward, you can CC, bring people into it.

00:45:38.20
Andrew
Yeah. And just like, yeah, it's like, it's not, there's no expectation that it happens right away.

00:45:46.55
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:45:47.67
Andrew
And it's how people are used to communicating already.

00:45:50.08
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:51.71
Andrew
Yeah. It'll be interesting to see, know, every now and then these new interface, we talk about these new interfaces and stuff and like most of them don't take hold, but so it'll be interesting to see if like AI over email ever actually takes hold or not.

00:45:59.18
Sean
yeah yeah

00:46:09.18
Sean
I mean, AI over like a hotkeyed email inbox, like a superhuman or like your own Gmail just with hotkeys, sounds pretty cool. Like I do, like on my email, out I do a main inbox and then do multiple, like an action items inbox. I do multiple, like a multiple inbox layout and then a waiting on sort of thing.

00:46:27.31
Andrew
OK.

00:46:29.11
Sean
But I can see how, you know, if have my main inbox, but then I also have like I'm gonna go ahead and little of tag that's like waiting on right? Or I do something, it's auto-tagged, and it goes into a queue on the right side.

00:46:40.16
Sean
After it's done, it pops up to like my action items thing that I can check it out.

00:46:40.23
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:46:43.13
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:46:43.70
Sean
It's kind of cool. It's like delegation, but with AI doing things, yeah.

00:46:45.65
Andrew
Yeah.

00:46:51.09
Sean
Cool, sweet. I just wanted to go build that, and then I can use it. Then it'd be great. Cool. Our new product marketer just started this Monday.

00:47:03.03
Andrew
Oh, cool.

00:47:03.82
Sean
yeah It feels like we've done nothing but onboard new people recently, which is pretty crazy.

00:47:08.01
Andrew
Yeah.

00:47:09.78
Sean
Q1 just ended. That was pretty awesomeo pretty wild. we made

00:47:13.42
Andrew
Yeah.

00:47:14.94
Sean
We made and the past 90 days, we and did basically how much we did. Well, twice what we did last Q1.

00:47:26.87
Sean
Yeah, pretty wild.

00:47:27.81
Andrew
Cool. That's great. Yeah, that's awesome growth.

00:47:31.32
Sean
Thanks.

00:47:32.43
Andrew
what kind of stuff is your product marketer going to be working on?

00:47:35.73
Sean
Client product marketing stuff, so like website copy, website layouts, others.

00:47:40.49
Andrew
Are they going to be doing like strategy kind of stuff with clients? So like helping them figure out like what content to include and like how to, you know, positioning and like how to brand themselves.

00:47:46.70
Sean
I hope so.

00:47:53.33
Sean
that is my goal that is my yeah that is my goal it's only day two for her so we'll see yeah that is my goal so so that i am out of all of or most of it so that's exciting i'm just yeah i'm so ready to not be the only person doing that yeah i uh i don't i don't know i gotta i gotta to figure out how to gotta figure out how to

00:47:54.80
Andrew
Cool.

00:47:57.93
Andrew
Yeah, of course.

00:48:05.58
Andrew
I'd be sick, man.

00:48:20.68
Sean
delegate out the work properly for it and figure out... it's It's like a different role that I haven't met really managed before.

00:48:28.89
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:48:29.45
Sean
I also...

00:48:31.08
Sean
yeah also

00:48:31.81
Andrew
And I assume it'll be kind of like a slow transition. You'll start handing things off in pieces and then slowly try to ramp up to where you've handed everything off.

00:48:40.11
Sean
I think so. I mean, I think I get the sense that they are also very eager to just start helping and doing things and they have a high bias for action and high agency and I don't want to be.

00:48:46.48
Andrew
Cool.

00:48:50.70
Andrew
you don't want to limit that?

00:48:50.91
Sean
Like, I can see how I can just kill that right by not giving enough, but I can also see.

00:48:53.35
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:48:57.45
Sean
i don't know. I got to figure something out with it. Yeah, it's a new skill that I have to learn.

00:49:04.17
Sean
Yeah.

00:49:04.66
Andrew
How fast could you see yourself hiring a second product marketer?

00:49:09.41
Andrew
Like, do you think one person will be able to manage the load for a while if they're not also having to do all of your other work? Or do you think that like, you could pretty quickly ramp up to two and even like make this a bigger part of the service offerings that you all provide?

00:49:26.08
Sean
I would... It's probably six months at most. At least. I think I would... Yeah, I doubt it. I think it would be probably nine to 12 months.

00:49:35.48
Andrew
Cool.

00:49:35.70
Sean
the The main thing is like... this is like a very egotistical thing to say, but I think the longer I've done this, the more I am uniquely qualified to do this than anyone else.

00:49:46.54
Sean
Purely off of like an awesome product marketer, but there's no way you as a single awesome product marketer at two companies in your, or two or three companies in your career have seen this many security companies.

00:49:59.06
Sean
Yeah.

00:49:59.16
Andrew
Yeah. So you're partially just like, you've got it teach the market knowledge.

00:50:00.93
Sean
and our

00:50:05.81
Andrew
You've got to like get the market knowledge out of your head into their head.

00:50:06.01
Sean
yeah

00:50:08.98
Sean
Yeah, exactly.

00:50:10.06
Andrew
Yeah.

00:50:10.29
Sean
It's not even, yeah, yeah, it's market knowledge. It's like industry sector knowledge. Like, they come from GLP stuff.

00:50:13.66
Andrew
And that's something you've been trying to get, figure out like with the whole team. Like you, I feel like when you talk about, onboarding and you talk about training, a lot of what it sounds like you're talking about is not like we're training you how to be a good web designer. It's like, no, we want to hire people who are already good web designers and then train them on how to do web design for cybersecurity.

00:50:35.70
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. I think, Yeah, I think it's trying to train in the empathy of the end user slash buyer.

00:50:48.34
Sean
Yeah.

00:50:48.98
Andrew
And just all that, like, oh, if we talk about ourselves like this, 30 other companies already talk about themselves like that. So it's going to just come across as blah, bland versus, yeah.

00:50:56.48
Sean
Right.

00:51:00.41
Sean
Right. Right. It

00:51:03.28
Andrew
Also, there's just so much fucking jargon and so many acronyms and, like, so much lingo.

00:51:06.22
Sean
really is.

00:51:09.91
Sean
It really is. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the the other thing is, like, I think the industry, like, you can see the pattern of the market become, like, starts starts with the visibility tool, then it gets into into security posture management, and then it gets into detection response.

00:51:23.74
Sean
and then And then it's like, let's do another thing to be larger platform because we need more ARR. And that's why you have, like, CSPM, SSPM, KSPM, ASPM, DSPM, and then you have, yeah.

00:51:39.19
Andrew
you should You should encourage them to like read through some of Mike's industry reports.

00:51:39.22
Sean
I don't know, man.

00:51:45.06
Sean
Oh, yeah, yeah, we yeah.

00:51:47.31
Sean
we We tell them to. We tell them to subscribe. yeah We boost Mike's numbers up by 10 people. you know

00:51:54.59
Andrew
Cool.

00:51:56.04
Sean
Yeah, Mike's a good resource for that sort of stuff. Ross is a good resource as well. all the All the creators, I think, are solid resources, but...

00:52:01.31
Andrew
I and don't remember if I, like, full-on pitched this to Mike, but it was in my head, and I feel like I sort of half-pitched it to him.

00:52:09.50
Sean
Mike Pribbett, by the way, return on security.

00:52:09.56
Andrew
I think, yeah, Return on Security, one of our good friends, metamonster, alpha user.

00:52:11.49
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:52:15.55
Andrew
Yeah.

00:52:16.06
Sean
yeah

00:52:18.88
Andrew
I think he should do like a programmatic SEO play for cybersecurity acronyms. Like just build a massive database of acronyms and what they mean.

00:52:29.81
Andrew
And then like just have like a search interface where people can go and like search for like this acronym.

00:52:39.46
Sean
Dude, I pitched the same, half of the same thing to Mike. That's so funny.

00:52:45.92
Sean
I pitched him, I pitched him, you know what TechTarget is?

00:52:49.62
Andrew
No.

00:52:50.52
Sean
Okay, TechTarget is this giant network of blogs across the internet. Anything from healthcare tech to FinTech to AI to all this sort of stuff.

00:52:59.44
Andrew
Huh.

00:53:00.55
Sean
And they're B2B business blogs, right? And a lot of a lot of what they do is, what is ASPM?

00:53:02.23
Andrew
Yeah.

00:53:05.47
Sean
What is KSPM? What is CD?

00:53:06.27
Andrew
Yep.

00:53:06.79
Sean
or All that sort of stuff. And they rank highly for it. And the blogs all link to each other, so they all pass SEO juice.

00:53:09.40
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:53:13.48
Sean
And it's kind of just like a like a private blog network, but like a more legal version that Google is okay with.

00:53:20.01
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

00:53:20.19
Sean
The point that I'm getting at is like tech basically when when AI writing started, I was like, Mike, maybe you should do something like this because you can create these like little blog assets on the internet, rank them high, highly. And the thing that TechTarget sells you is account based marketing.

00:53:35.10
Sean
You want, you want the CISO of MetLife or the MetLife team to buy your stuff. you tech target knows that metlife because they download things and they get their email tech target knows that they go to healthcare security.net they go to dark reading whatever they go to you know whatever so they're going to put strategically put ads on these assets and then try to put a sponsored white paper from you on here to try to get the you know cizof whatever it's like 75k a campaign or something like that yeah so yeah

00:53:59.57
Andrew
Damn.

00:54:03.98
Andrew
Jesus. That's nuts. I guess there's like mixed value to doing that stuff these days because... Like that is exactly the kind of top of funnel informational content that is starting to, that is like losing search share the fastest to ai overviews and, you know, AI searches and and whatnot.

00:54:22.24
Sean
Yeah.

00:54:24.20
Andrew
But,

00:54:25.20
Sean
I mean, do you think people are going to Claude and going, what is... Mm-hmm.

00:54:30.39
Andrew
Well, but it doesn't even matter if they... I think sometimes, yes. Like, I have TypingMind open pretty much twenty four seven now.

00:54:34.67
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:54:38.31
Andrew
And I, like... It's, like, kind of fifty fifty at this point, whether I'm going to run a Google search for something like that or a Claude search. But... but

00:54:50.51
Andrew
But also just like Google's AI overviews. Like this is the kind of stuff that like Jim and I will have, like you won't get any clicks because no one's ever going to get scroll down far enough to get to your link.

00:54:55.15
Sean
Yeah.

00:55:02.55
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brandon's search is probably a lot higher. no.

00:55:07.11
Andrew
Yeah. Also he has a, that's the other thing he should do is have a database of, have like a page for every cybersecurity company.

00:55:07.61
Sean
on

00:55:15.07
Andrew
Because

00:55:16.35
Sean
Yeah, i mean, he does have that. He does. Just not.

00:55:19.03
Andrew
Sort of. he has He has the database, but he doesn't have like he doesn't have informational pages about all of them.

00:55:21.47
Sean
Yeah.

00:55:25.01
Sean
Yep. ye Yep. Yep. Yeah.

00:55:26.24
Andrew
And he has them in mentioned in all of his newsletters. But if you had like informational pages, like a programmatic SEO style informational pages about every, then you could potentially capture some of the branded search.

00:55:41.50
Sean
yeah

00:55:42.45
Andrew
I guess then you run the risk of like all of a sudden now you're building Trustpilot for cybersecurity.

00:55:47.51
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just G2 at this point.

00:55:49.22
Andrew
Yeah. But like, maybe that's a good business.

00:55:50.58
Sean
I mean, that's giant business, just for what it's worth. G2 is a crazy business, yeah.

00:55:55.27
Andrew
Also, like neither of us really have room to be advising Mike on anything because he's doing really well. Like he's doing great.

00:56:02.07
Sean
just

00:56:06.91
Sean
Yeah, I don't know what we're talking about here. That's...

00:56:09.83
Andrew
He doesn't need us.

00:56:11.04
Sean
Yeah, the guy has better margins than both of us combined at the moment, so...

00:56:13.58
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:16.17
Sean
Yeah. Uh-huh.

00:56:17.46
Andrew
Although it was super fun. I gave him like a little bullet like one pager of SEO ideas.

00:56:22.60
Sean
Yeah.

00:56:22.92
Andrew
think I think I talked about this on the last episode. And he's like one of those rare quote unquote clients who actually went and started implementing all of them.

00:56:25.29
Sean
Yeah.

00:56:28.05
Sean
Mm-hmm.

00:56:30.02
Andrew
Like he just started running with it. And I was like, this fucking awesome.

00:56:31.95
Sean
Uh-huh.

00:56:33.62
Andrew
Someone who listens. Yeah.

00:56:36.24
Sean
yeah cool what else is we're like 14 minutes over on this podcast at this point yeah

00:56:40.94
Andrew
This is like way longer than any of our episodes have been in a long time. You want to wrap real quick by talking about video?

00:56:48.47
Sean
totally well we have a new editor so hopefully this actually isn't a long podcast at all and it's cut down or or you can play the whole thing anyway shout yeah

00:56:56.75
Andrew
Yeah. Generally, please cut out anything you think is boring or bullshit, which I got to be careful with that. He might cut out, you know, 75% of the podcast.

00:57:07.09
Sean
you

00:57:09.74
Sean
SEO? Gone. Gone.

00:57:13.11
Andrew
Andrew's robot bullshit, gone.

00:57:13.33
Sean
oh

00:57:17.31
Sean
Yeah, we have a new editor. I think the new episode is coming out either today tomorrow for last week. r are Dude, when i saw that i saw that intro to the podcast, was like, wow.

00:57:33.88
Sean
We're not this interesting. They're going to be so...

00:57:35.24
Andrew
Yeah. We're you're drastically overselling by making us sound interesting at the start of the podcast. And then people are going to listen and be like, damn.

00:57:42.44
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's, I think, I showed him our, I showed him our, uh, aspirational channels, and I think he, he gave me, like, a plan for to grow this channel and how to do all that sort of stuff, because he's experiencing it for other folks.

00:57:58.45
Sean
and I just, like, dude... Here's what we're trying to do. Trying to get to. I can see it calculated in his head. I'm like, these guys just want 500 viewers per video.

00:58:09.34
Sean
What are these they're fucking losers?

00:58:10.50
Andrew
What are these idiots doing? Like, how, why am I wasting my time on someone who only wants 500 views per, per episode?

00:58:17.88
Sean
yeah

00:58:19.09
Andrew
Like what? Yeah.

00:58:22.06
Sean
yeah but he was like gotta make three shorts a day and then it's like I don't have the capacity to do that but hopefully he'll clip some good stuff out of this and turn them into shorts yeah yeah content creation is hard man being a full-time content creator is a lot like not even just like being successful as a content creator just the work of content creation at that scale it's tough

00:58:25.75
Andrew
Oh God. What?

00:58:33.00
Andrew
That'd be cool.

00:58:40.99
Andrew
Yeah, it's a lot of work.

00:58:49.72
Andrew
Yeah. Also, it just requires like a little, not even a little bit. It feels like it requires so much delusion and so much just like, you have to be completely unembarrassed.

00:59:03.92
Sean
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah which don't know I think there's some merit to that like this idea that content creation is just unlearning shame and think it's good there's probably some level of healthiness to it you know

00:59:04.84
Andrew
You have to just be like kind of shameless.

00:59:15.88
Andrew
Yeah.

00:59:18.81
Andrew
Yeah. I mean, like everything in balance, like we all probably have too much shame and like one thing that I've been trying to do a little bit better job of is When people ask you what you do or something like that, I always try to downplay it because I don't want to come across as like, know, annoying tech bro who's like gabbing about his startup.

00:59:40.21
Andrew
And but it's like you should have a little bit of pride in your work and be like, yeah, I think I think this is cool.

00:59:40.92
Sean
Yeah. 100%.

00:59:45.31
Andrew
I think it's interesting. It's OK if you don't. That's fine. But I've been trying to figure out like an answer to the like, you know, the classic what do you do or. question or even when I talk about this podcast I always try to downplay because I don't want to be again another tech bro with a shitty podcast that only gets 15 listeners

01:00:03.22
Sean
hundred and 22.

01:00:03.38
Sean
Alright. Cool.

01:00:05.56
Sean
twenty two twenty two

01:00:07.41
Andrew
yeah but yeah so i I'm trying to do a slightly better job of having a little bit of pride in what I do and not being afraid of being you know typecast into such a shitty category and just being like no like

01:00:14.67
Sean
Mm-hmm.

01:00:22.41
Andrew
I can be humble about this, but also and not be like an asshole about it who thinks he's hot shit. But I can also still be proud of the work that I've put in. And like, you know, the, know, the things that I find interesting, i can, you let people know that I find them interesting and fun.

01:00:38.63
Sean
Yeah, definitely. Plus, you know, having it having a kick-ass editor who makes us look way more interesting really helps the ego. Yeah. the ego oh

01:00:49.35
Andrew
yeah i guess we could have uh taken the time to learn to edit at some point but every time i tried i just stared at the screen and was like this does not compute

01:01:01.26
Sean
I know how to edit. Hold on. That's not true. I know how to clip things and move around and do that stuff. But there is like an actual level of it, of making it good.

01:01:12.78
Andrew
yeah The worst part was if you're going to be a good editor, you have to listen to what you're editing.

01:01:19.18
Sean
and know.

01:01:19.29
Andrew
And I didn't want to listen to myself.

01:01:21.06
Sean
It's the worst part.

01:01:24.60
Sean
It's the worst. way It was the worst part of running my own podcast. Having to. Have to sit through that over and over and over again.

01:01:33.19
Andrew
I should probably listen to us at least occasionally so that I get better and get feedback on what works and what doesn't. But God, it sucks.

01:01:44.35
Sean
i mean. I think editing, listening while you're editing is a little different. like has been a little I like our podcast. I listen to them every now and then. I check them out. i mean you know I might be pumping up the view numbers by by by listening to it once or twice on YouTube. but yeah yeah and I'm just saying, like editing like and in your own voice every week.

01:02:06.97
Andrew
is a different level of hell yeah cool sweet man good uh good chatting with you i uh i'm excited to see progress on

01:02:08.42
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:11.94
Sean
Cool. Thanks. See you later.

01:02:16.65
Sean
Yeah, i'll send you I'll send you the most recent recent one. We've got images.

01:02:20.27
Andrew
Well, that, and I'm also just, I'm excited to see how far the SAS product has come by the next time we talk and see how that LinkedIn outreach goes.

01:02:28.45
Andrew
so

01:02:29.28
Sean
Yeah, totally.

01:02:30.20
Andrew
Yeah. Also next episode, meta monster beta should be launched and i will know if anyone has signed up or not.

01:02:39.16
Sean
Cool. when is it When is it coming out? April.

01:02:42.81
Andrew
Seventh

01:02:42.94
Sean
It's not March. Okay. April 7th. That is five days from.

01:02:45.65
Andrew
Monday.

01:02:46.75
Sean
Yeah. Okay. That's Monday. Sorry. I can't do math. Cool. Good luck.

01:02:51.20
Andrew
Yeah, so by Wednesday when we're recording this, hopefully I will have a handful of new users, whether they're customers whether they become customers or not. I won't know for you until the free trial runs out.

01:03:01.45
Sean
Right. Jeez.

01:03:03.75
Andrew
We've got a seven-day free trial, but I will at least know if we have any new users.

01:03:08.83
Sean
Sweet. I hope you... Yeah. I hope we don't record this because you'll be too busy fighting client fires and going, oh shit, our crawler is down because we have 10 people simultaneously banging on it.

01:03:23.65
Andrew
I don't think that should send our crawler down. it seems to be more like when we run into really weird esoteric like yeah HTML structure stuff that

01:03:30.72
Sean
Websites?

01:03:34.47
Andrew
that is

01:03:35.56
Sean
Yeah.

01:03:36.19
Andrew
Bizarre. That seems to be what what brings it down.

01:03:37.31
Sean
Gotcha.

01:03:49.18
Sean
Oh, really?

01:03:56.18
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because cam it's it's like image first.

01:03:56.96
Andrew
the

01:03:59.16
Sean
And i think so.

01:03:59.89
Andrew
Is it really? Okay.

01:04:01.72
Sean
I've seen a couple of canvas sites. It's very... They're weird. They're very weird.

01:04:05.91
Andrew
Yeah.

01:04:07.22
Sean
Yeah.

01:04:07.41
Andrew
Okay, cool. That makes me feel a little better.

01:04:09.48
Sean
Yeah.

01:04:10.74
Andrew
I don't think we'll have too many Canvas sites that people will be will be working on, so I'm not super worried about it.

01:04:10.59
Sean
Yeah. for

01:04:14.50
Sean
i don't think it's your use I don't think it's your use case.

01:04:16.79
Andrew
No, I'm not super worried about it.

01:04:17.23
Sean
you know yeah You should try out some framer sites.

01:04:19.18
Andrew
But it's

01:04:20.58
Sean
Actually, I'm going to go run Metamonster against some framer sites.

01:04:22.35
Andrew
It's just, it's funny because I was trying to show it off to one of so my like programmer kid on the team. I was like, hey, you want to see like what I've been working on? Here, I'll crawl crawl the team website. And then I was like, fuck, it's broken. and And he just like looked at me like,

01:04:36.17
Sean
Oh, no.

01:04:39.76
Sean
He just pats you on the back like, it's okay, man. We've been there. Maybe next year you'll get into Worlds.

01:04:44.82
Andrew
i try

01:04:44.97
Sean
But we...

01:04:45.75
Andrew
i tried to be nice and like I went in on Sunday to fix something on the robot and I ended up causing more issues than fixed. And he was like working on fixing them on to last night.

01:04:57.46
Sean
Uh-huh.

01:04:58.94
Andrew
And I was like, all right, Emiliano, what can I do to help? And he was he looks at me and goes, just step back.

01:05:06.74
Sean
That's amazing. Kudos to your kids for making it to States, even with you.

01:05:12.49
Andrew
Even with me dragging them down.

01:05:12.95
Sean
i

01:05:17.78
Sean
If they lose worlds, it's your fault. not

01:05:19.61
Andrew
Oh, absolutely.

01:05:22.96
Sean
Cool.

01:05:23.87
Andrew
right, man.

01:05:24.54
Sean
Good luck to them. Good luck to your launch.

01:05:25.51
Andrew
Yeah.

01:05:26.56
Andrew
Thanks.

01:05:27.34
Sean
Set it for Monday.

01:05:28.45
Andrew
Lots going on between now and the next episode.

01:05:30.41
Sean
Yeah. Good luck. Have fun. Enjoy.

01:05:32.26
Andrew
Thanks.

01:05:32.50
Sean
I'll talk to you.

01:05:32.55
Andrew
All right.

01:05:33.08
Sean
I'll talk to later. Bye.

01:05:34.48
Andrew
Peace.